Video: Analog vs. Digital Zettelkasten with Sascha Fast (From Zettelkasten.de) (DocDrop)

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what is up friends and fellow anti-knighters out there this is scott shepherd here what you're about to watch today is a dialogue a discourse between myself and sasha fast sashafast owns and

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runs zettlecoston.de this is one of the the top resources for uh the zenocostan method as he calls it and uh sasha sasha has great graciously

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uh opened up his platform he's been awesome he is uh you know he's an individual that airs on the side of uh using digital zedelkostin and uh he reached out to me about a month ago

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saying hey let's get a video going together where we can debate and really just discuss it's not not so much a debate but it's discussion on the pros and cons of analog settle costume versus

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digitals that'll cost them so anyway hope you enjoy this is the recording of that that little video zoom session and what you'll see and learn is it's not so much a debate as it is there's just a

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lot of really openness curiosity and um really a lot of learning which uh could help illuminate you uh whether or not you use an analog settle costume aka something i

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called an antinet zettle costume or if you use a digital settle costume so this was a fun uh discussion and uh if you want to see another video

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then type in your comments below and let us know your feedback because this was a lot of fun i think there was a lot of really invaluable learnings to come out of it anyway that's all i'm going to say for the preamble i'll jump right into the video right now all right peace

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and love talk to you later bye so dear settlers finally the big battle has arrived scott versus sasha asked scott with sasha against the world you have to decide so it's that's me and scott

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welcome scott to the subtle world hey uh glad to be here and uh thank you for having me thank you for uh putting this idea together it's uh it's always great getting an email from

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you just like when i got an email from you back in uh december asking me to you know write about the anti-net and you know have it published on settle costs and dot d e i was like wow this is this is awesome

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so i'm really grateful that um you know you and christian and the whole like settle costume.e dot de community has been so open in in having uh someone you know

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that like me that represents the the uh the old school world the amish people world the analog world in uh doing things you know the old way and the hard way so

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yeah thank you yeah i don't i don't think you need to thank me because i'm just i'm just on the mission to build a platform that entails all the settle custom ways or everything in

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that the cell custom method can basically absorb so it's just in my own interest like to have at least someone who actually does it because i don't i don't like the

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the the current state i think that there are many people presenting just the saddle custom method or what uh they think that zelda custom method is but you never see like uh

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how they actually do their own work and i'm fine with that because i can't i can basically uh i can't show my original work because it's in german so i often have to make some

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some examples like that or if you like closed up so if you want don't want to publish it it's it's fine but it's kind of obvious that if you would press for real world examples you most of the time get

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um uh you you wouldn't get like a like a satisfying answer or example and that is like it's it's very similar to um too many fields so in

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uh in germany it was um i think it was me perhaps it's my uh over inflated ego but i think it was me it started with a facebook post that uh of me in

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uh in a barrel on my balcony so i started like a it was a little trend of code adaptation training and um i wrote something about that and then

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you saw the inevitable blog posts in the blogosphere and the youtubers picked it up and if you actually did it like cold adaption it was very easy to see who actually did

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it themselves and then had some practical experience and some people like just researched it and like i think you you know it like when people say like the 12 best tips for x and y

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yeah and um you have this kind of blog post that's obvious like easy grabs for content and basically just perhaps marketing for an affiliate site or just their own project yeah i think

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that that is kind of normally i normally hold back with a negative critique because i i think even negative critiques attention and the internet runs on attention so i don't

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even want to pay this attention but this is really like it's annoying a bit annoying i think um and i think you can be annoyed a little bit yeah but not

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to the amount that like uh um gets to you yeah yeah you know i i i i've been getting a lot of feedback from people of people that have found my videos and my channel and they're like saying oh my god this is you know the

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first uh time i've actually seen an example of how it works and they're very grateful and they come to me and i think on one hand like i don't really realize how bad it is because i'm

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never really you know searching for uh zettlecost and youtube stuff but from from what i've heard is it echoes and it's exactly what you've described i think a lot of people the content they're really good at i'm horrible at

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creating videos you know like my video was just me and my iphone you know walking through and everyone's like the comments i get are like oh my god you're uh you know i mean a lot of people love my videos and they're the ones that hang around but you know some of the people

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were like oh my god i'm getting motion sickness watching you yeah watching you use your iphone and showing you showing you know showing off how it works and stuff but a lot of people have really appreciated it because i'm actually

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walking through my own examples live examples of how to actually you know work with a a zetto costan and um i think what what a lot of other people

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have done is they're really great at creating videos right and then they stumbled upon the whole idea of of subtle cost and usually from from like how to read smart notes

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and what they end up doing is basically just regurgitating what is in how to you know how to take smart notes which is you know the what i call the orenzi in terms of like fleeing notes and literature notes and permanent notes and

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they they kind of just create like really flashy videos explaining it and then and then inevitably they they they end up going shifting right over to obsidian and then just showing off you know obsidian features and like that's

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like the extent of the uh of the videos and it's like wait well you know actually show me how to actually use it show me the substance and um and uh yeah i think you've you've done a great job on that as well like i've seen

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your videos of you know critiquing notes and going through it and um you showing off you know you using the archive and um and that's been that's been awesome and i think really

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valuable for the community as well yeah i think yeah that that is what um my it was my reason why i uh uh wrote you the email because it's just like i

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saw someone who was opinionated and like sticks to his guns and then just does what he does and i really don't mind the occasional snarkiness or side

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comment against anyone it's not like what i'm not it's not what like i'm doing in public in private i'm uh i'm a very uh uh confrontational or advanced adversary

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guy by by temperament um but i just like like filter it um through my politeness filter but i really don't mind it so it's like it's if if you are if you're right like

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really standing behind uh what you are doing then it then it is a bit inevitable like being a bit annoyed when you think something is not genuine and then you point it out and this is like

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the side product yeah yeah i uh yeah and um yeah i've tried i've tried to get better at that as well instead of like bashing uh certain certain uh you know in individuals or

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people in the uh in the the obsidian space you know uh i i've i've uh i've uh restrained myself and you know i mean like it's it's funny is i've i

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actually have grown to appreciate it and i appreciate the diversity in the community too even in like you know the zettelcost and de forums you know like i i'm not on a mission to convert you know the entire world to analog or something

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you know like i actually think i i actually think different people have different mediums in which they think more proficiently and they think better you know like for instance the the founder of i used

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to be in the uh the cryptocurrency space and now that's my last company was a cryptocurrency and one of the figureheads in cryptocurrency is the founder of ethereum whose name is vitalik buterin

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and that guy is you know the closest thing to a robot that that i think we have on this planet he's an absolute genius you know he has his corks and he just you know stares in his computer and

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thinks you know in code and decentralized blockchain code and the the thought of him you know me pitching him to move to the analog world and write everything by hand is uh i think

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a uh seemingly absurd because some people just think better in the digital form i myself i know from my own experiences you know a b testing both platforms you know i have a ton of digital notes and it was kind of hard

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hard for me to switch to analog because i had like a thousand notes sitting there right and i'm like oh god like you know should i just you know scorch it all and uh you know i was facing the sunk cost policy and i'm like but then i

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tested as soon as i tested analog and you know for 15 years the analog writing by hand form has worked better for me as soon as i you know started writing by hand again i'm like oh god this just feels right i know for me i've tested

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both and i think better and i slow my mind down when i write by hand so anyways the point i was trying to make was like in the zettlecost and de community there's you know really interesting people like

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there's like the the uh the mathematical thinkers that you know create these massive specks of you know there have you seen the spec document you've seen it of how like yeah yeah the mathematical specification for how

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photo works and i'm like wow mind-blowing i don't understand the thing about that it's like my math is too bad for that and uh i just i'm just in awe i really i think mathematic formula are beautiful and that's the

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extent of my understanding of it i see it and this are beautiful like art and that's all yeah yeah no i've i have a book on uh set theory and i i started going through it last year because i'm like seeing all these greek you know

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symbols and stuff and i'm like god i wish i could understand this stuff and uh i'm halfway through it it's really interesting uh but yeah to understand that photo mathematical spec that would take me about uh at least two

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and a half months of uh like full-time uh you know commitment of uh reading like you know reading it for like two hours a day or something um yeah but yeah yeah it's it's interesting

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that people think like that you know it's a diverse community so yeah yeah i think that comes with openness so we um i made it a point so because i'm also

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moderating the the forum i'm making the point that it's like sometimes you um sometimes i'm i'm pretty like harsh on when i see some some bullshitting and um but most of the time it's like

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i'm i'm just a result open so to say i just want to have the arguments there and then if the arguments are there and properly presented then i don't care about the

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results and even um i feel like i have my ever big skin in the game so if i see something that is more efficient or more effective that i am doing i'm just i'm the first person

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adopting it so it's like and i i learned quite a lot uh um even though i have like a it's it's fun to me sometimes it's strange because i have a head start of 10 years because it's like because i started it

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like when i was uh with um yeah like 12 years ago i started my telecast no it's wrong like 13 years ago i'm an old dude it was like around in

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2014 or 15 that you started it ah no no i started my first uh i might sell custom when it was like half a year uh it was 20

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2008 i think okay 2008 2009 then it was it was analog i think the first um then i i uh like wandered through all

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applications that were available there and then christian um christian um convinced me of the plaintext approach and then i think i

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just stick to it and it was like 2010 when i uh stick to the plain text approach back then with with resolve notes and it was like my computer was

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quite slow back then so i had to like create my notes of the day into uh in another app um i think it's just a text editor and then like slowly slowly copy them copy it

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into resolve notes because creating a one note was like about like half a minute of loading time or something like that so it was like really

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slow similar to the analog uh way back then yeah and then of course i uh improved my my uh technology yeah uh so so uh so christian is the culprit huh

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he's he's he's the evil one that that switched you from analog to uh digital huh i don't know i uh in before but he like really he uh christian is responsible for many of

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like technical soundness that i'm uh i'm using now because yeah i was i was introduced into like like really using text electors and not word for writing

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and uh such things yeah yeah you guys are a great team christian is is awesome and brilliant you know with his uh technic technical skills and yeah yeah that's one of the things i is i you know i feel like

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everyone talks about either obsidian or notion and i've tried out the archive and it's it's great it's a snappy tool i think it's one of the the better uh i would say it's seriously one of the it

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doesn't get talked about enough in my opinion it's it's awesome yeah of course when i'm when i'm hearing uh that someone uh uses obsidian or i see

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how like un famous uh the archive is of course my heart is bleeding but um i think the culprit is that now we are at a stage like quite similar to text

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editors so in the beginning it was like very difficult like back then when we had star writer uh which george r martin still uses oh yeah that's right yeah and uh

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such apps so it was like hard to give even get the feature and then uh the technology or the hardware was fast enough and then we had the face of feature bloat and then with like word and

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to me writing in words like uh or opening a word document is like going into a cockpit or something like that you have all the buttons and all the technical things yeah and it's like it feels it's awful like similar to

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overwhelming with options yeah and it's i think it's not like that the options are there but something about the design is that the options like like really try to grab your attention

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and then i don't know the history of distraction free editors but then it was like a movement and i remember uh that i think the ia writer like really

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pushed pushed the movement and made it popular because then it was like a going back it was back to paper but now just on your screen and that's really my

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my number one criteria for a writing app so it should feel exactly like an empty paper exactly and all the other stuff should uh should go in the background and then it's like you have a paper and then you have your tools around it but you can

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just focus on the paper instead of the tools pushing into your attention yep yeah and the archives oh uh last point the archive is just um it's designed with this in mind to be honest it's like it should be just it

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should be as distraction free as possible and that means like really being uh conservative about adding features yeah because i don't like it it's like there's an argument uh to be made that

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okay you don't need to include the features or you can just uh switch them out or something like that but i think it's not it's not quite correct because there was something about it because uh to even

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forbid features because the ia writer like back then they they went really hard on their stuff and you couldn't you couldn't uh personalize anything so they thought we have the true one

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uh one setting and this is what you get and if you don't like it then go somewhere else this was uh uh the thing back then and i think there was

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there was um they might be too harsh but perhaps uh they was on something yeah i i remember the uh

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back then when they shift shifted to uh the distraction free text editors the one that really struck me that was amazing with the distraction free editor

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was this one called om writer omm writer yeah remember that one it was just like it's like you're staring at this like empty zen like field and you're like you're writing away and you can hear your little typing oh god i love that um

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yeah and uh yeah i mean it's funny because with uh word i've had to um i'm you know working with a copy editor now for my book and she she's loves using word and i think word does have like a really

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good um track changes features and editing features you know but but i've written the book in ulysses which is like a a great i love i love it it's like a writing app for the mac and it's just very light on features it's very

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snappy and quick you know and um and uh and so i've now had to like start writing in word again i'm like oh god this is awful it's freezing you're like yeah you know but uh

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but yeah man uh uh yeah and i i think the the main point is like you know i really like i don't i don't think um yeah the archive gets as much attention as it ought to but you know i think obsidian has done a really

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good job of uh being light and snappy and and but the one of the issues with obsidian is when i've you know it it it forces one to start majoring in the minor you know like

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it it has so many plug-ins and features that that uh it almost distracts you from actually the process of thinking and creating and developing your own knowledge and developing your own notes you know it's like when you first get it like the

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boilerplate plate version is very simple like on the left-hand panel or left-hand side there's you know very few plug-ins and features enabled and then you know you start going down the rabbit hole and you learn all the hotkeys and

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like the the the keyboard shortcuts templates and it's like pretty before you know it you've got like you know um 15 plugins you know community plugins and and uh it turns into you know like i mean i found myself on

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weekends this is like a year ago when i was using obsidian um you know like edit because they have a dom you know like a document object manager or review whatever that acronym

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stands for where it acts almost like a browser where you can view the code and customize the customize the layout um the the color everything and i spent just so much time making it beautiful making it perfect

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for me and uh then i got pulled down the rabbit hole of of you know the community plug-ins and stuff and i'm like this is great but then you know it was like every few weeks would pass and i'm refactoring my notes

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i'm uh you know adding new schemes for adding meta metadata at the very very top of my top of everything and uh before and then and then then you know then i went back to uh then at around

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that time i i started reading sanke orenz's book how to how to take smart notes and he has like a very i would say uh rough you know guide of how to actually build out your the analog version and i had

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been you know using and creating um you know writing on note cards uh using analog version since 2006 like when i was in college when i was like in my junior year of college i remember i'm

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like man i'm learning so many good good uh pieces of content and knowledge and i'm like i'm i just it made me feel sad that all of the this amazing stuff that i was learning was locked inside individual notebooks like

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i had an individual notebook for every single class and i'm like i'm never going to like you know go through it like and so i started creating and using notecards and this isn't like 2006.

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and um but then you know after probably i don't know five ten maybe ten years of uh doing this i was left with i used to you know organize them by subject and i never numbered them at all

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and so it wasn't in but i'm like so it was hard for me to add multiple shoe boxes and i still have them back there just filled and stacked and organized um by uh by rubber band like i would like

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rubber band them together and put them in like a box you know to organize them by like category or or book and then um it wasn't until but i i just always loved writing by hand and then

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you know because i just it it slowed my mind down i was able to like what i call neuro imprint ideas onto my mind that i was reading you know for my books like i would read a book on python and programming and then just write it down by hand

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but i ran into the limitations of being able to find anything and it wasn't until like sankey aren's is um you know teaching me how to how to uh you know number every single note

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card you know uh that and me actually practicing it that i was like oh my god like this is this is uh you know this is everything i've i've been missing and wanting and uh and yeah so anyways that's that's kind

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of a that's a a little bit of a jumped around a little bit but that that's kind of my origin story of you know starting with analog and then you know in 2008 2010 like i went to

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evernote and then i i went you know i've gone through the whole digital experience and then you know so i went from you know analog to like evernote and then back to analog and

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then and then um you know then using commonplace books and then to obsidian and like getting sold into i bought into the marketing hype you know when visiting the website of like oh build your own second brain i was like

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oh my god that sounds so cool and then uh and then you know after creating like a thousand notes i then went back to the uh analog world but this time around i had uh actually had the you know lumens

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zettle cost and framework yeah uh added to the mix which was the game changer for me and uh you know as you know i've i've come up with my own acronym and my own you know saying of it is the the anti-net uh to

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to describe it and um and yeah you know it's it's funniest because it's not just a notebox like i had a notebox you know since 2006 it's a special type of

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notebox it's like the romanian notebox with the the numeric alpha addresses and the tree like structure and the index to help me look it up so

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so yeah and that that's where i've that's where i've uh settled and on and that's that's where i am so um yeah that's my that's my origin story and background i think i think there's

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a connection there between the the issues that might arise with more complicated apps and what do you experience with going back

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to analog and on the one side and on the other side what i try to communicate more and more that is actually the the the settle custom

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process is like super it's insanely simple so if you just break it down by what you actually do it's creating notes it's connecting notes and it's browsing

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your archive however you do it and [Music] the question is why even write like more than a lengthy blog post about it

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and the answer to this question is that it's not about the simple action of creating a settle custom but about the tools and the like the the architectural [Music]

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designs that you that you create within that settle custom so i'm not really it's like to me the tool like the software for example or or if you would uh go like

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full analog it's not really that important because for example in my coaching experience like i was it was strange to me that i i

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experienced very very rarely what i call a fully developed note so it's not like necessarily like atomic um or um or something like that but uh uh it was

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kind of obvious that most of the people like are all are just still in the mindset of like capturing knowledge so it's like dead facts

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put on like like a on a note being a digital or analog and i quite often ask the question okay you showed me a note what do you think you will make of it like in five years or

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ten years or even a month and if the note was not fully developed uh the the people that are asked the question um like couldn't answer it it's like

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yeah it's it seemed like it seemed relevant to me and um the way out of it is to actually process the knowledge and i think i think that might be

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or this is in my perception one of the underlying patterns of your argumentation for the analog version because uh i think like okay just

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uh name a number of percentage numbers like 88 percent of of your arguments uh look like this the analog title custom forces you or seduces you to actually

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process the knowledge while the digital version allows you to skip the process of actually processing it collect information versus actually creating knowledge yeah yeah

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am i am am i right perhaps not with the 88 but uh you know that is a major part of your augmentation i i don't know if i would put it as high as 80 80 percent i would say

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uh so yeah i guess what we're talking about here is you know and what we agree on is it's not about storing information information is basically just a uh human

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readable human comprehensible form of data it's just facts right it's like um uh you know and so so uh you know it's about like you know storing information or facts right and i

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think it's easier to just to store information and collect a lot of information and facts in the digital world because you know uh the easiest way to do that is just copy and paste or oftentimes you

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don't even need to just copy and paste there's like browser plugins like you know read it later or pocket right and people and that's i think what uh what seems to be a lot of the um

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the the practices of uh the second brain guy you know thiago forte is you know his his is all about collection and it's like i think it's hyper collection it's like you're collecting way too much

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information without processing it um and i don't know i've never stepped back to say that like 80 percent of um of uh of what i talk about or underlying eighty percent of what i what i what i do

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is the the um the writing by hand um because you know you can you can certainly write by hand and write down facts you know as well um

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and uh and so yeah but i but what i what i do hold is that it's way way harder to uh store a lot of facts in

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you know an analog settle costin because there's no copy paste you actually have to write out the facts by hand and as a result of that i think there are more benefits over digital in that you

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are writing down uh neuro imprinting you know facts onto your mind that you can later recall more rapidly and stuff and um i think that's a benefit i don't i don't think it's um

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it certainly is you know look i've i've faxed neuro imprinted in my mind from things that i've written down like you know five ten years ago uh you know i started doing that you know like a while back and i'm

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like all right it is kind of it is kind of a little bit beneficial to have a lot of these facts you know printed on your mind and that's done through analog um you know for for instance it's like you

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know knowing the population sizes of uh of countries and areas and just like i know a bunch of random facts you know like like i would neuro imprint things in my

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mind of like okay well you know the state of texas has uh 25 million people in it and uh there are there were other other facts that i would come across my reading like you know

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um you know facts yeah just just facts even though it's better there would be like i would come across something like um there there's still slavery in this world you know like in india especially

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and there's 25 million slaves in this world and i'm like oh my god i'll link that together so i'd like would write write down oh there's 25 million slaves in this world and 25 million is population of texas i'm like people need

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to realize this right and then just just knowing knowing and being able to link that was kind of kind of nice but you know it's like if i if i collected all that information using digital there's a very good chance that i would

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have never made been able to make that connection you know and um you know there's like i just know population figures i know a lot of like revenue figures of companies to be able to size and certain things up and that's

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i think sort of beneficial um but yeah i mean i i do yeah i do think the the process of writing by hand and um you know that that that is you have only you only have

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the option of uh writing by hand and you know processing uh knowledge in the analog form that i i think that is a very it's it's a benefit you don't have to

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have the discipline uh you know you have to have the discipline to process notes in the digital form right you have to like be like okay i'm gonna like i'm i'm not gonna copy paste i'm not going to just recite information i'm

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actually going to um process and turn this into knowledge in the analog world you don't have to have discipline there it's just not an option you know you ha you have to process your knowledge otherwise

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uh you know for for the most part you know otherwise otherwise uh you know you can't just copy and paste and be a collection monkey you know um yeah it's it's funny because this is

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actually my um not my argument but what i stress a lot i it's called level of processing or depth of processing or a depth level something like that i don't know

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uh the exact phrase and it's um it's kind of you remember things better the more you process it via

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different channels for example so if you if you write something down uh you actually are moving your hand you're feeling the texture of the paper and seeing like the

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the relative spacing and position of the words to the cards and and all these kind of things increase the the number of associations in the brain but it's not like you have

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associations in the brain that you can access because of course they're unconscious it's like very similar to like learning numbers so if you're a child you can learn numbers by counting on your fingers

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or if you are like hyper modern you can use an ipad and have like a learning learning app for children but if you learn it on the ipad you lose basically the imprint or the the

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programming of your motor con motor cortex and what you later can find is that the brain actually like counts and uh calculates different when you

00:35:19

learn uh the the basic numbers different and um it doesn't it doesn't show up the the difference doesn't show up like early in in the child's biography but later on you

00:35:32

will have like a ceiling what you can really accomplish because you um because you don't engage the same amount of brains or say if you just learn it by an ipad because there's

00:35:45

no texture no no motor skills and something like that yeah and i think that's kind of similar with the analog version yeah they they call it in in human memory they call it external context um so we have

00:35:59

so the external context for instance is the the spatial cues and the other items that are kind of attached to the note right like and so i i have uh i've notes back there that are uh you know back in

00:36:12

like 2006 2007 um i a lot of my uh note cards they were uh three by five inch note cards and they were they were lime green and and so when i come across those notes

00:36:24

and i see my my handwriting has changed since then my handwriting has gotten a lot better but i see like i see like that old version of myself my old consciousness injected into that note and so when i'm reading knowledge and

00:36:36

information that comes from that and back then i was really into business and finance and investing and so a lot of the notes you know pertain to that and some are like life philosophy stuff um but

00:36:48

when i read those notes there's this um yeah this i guess this uh this external context that that i i see that you know oh they're the lime green notes and i visualize myself and i'm taking

00:37:01

back into that like 2006 to 2007 version of of uh myself scott shepard you know when i was like a junior or senior in college and you know as i'm processing and trying to understand that note and

00:37:14

comprehend it i um i i have all these other this other internal monologue or this internal dialogue going on in my head of uh you know it triggering my memory and stuff like that

00:37:27

and i think in a lot of the stuff that i remember is kind of like i think what you're talking about it was it was like neuro imprinted and hammered into my mind via the motor skills of writing out a bunch of this stuff and um

00:37:40

you know i uh yeah i do i do think there's there's research out there um and i think even even sankey are incited it in how to take smart notes there's one famous study called the pen

00:37:52

is mightier than the keyboard where they uh you know they they basically a b tested two groups of students on how well they performed on tests based on whether they typed notes or whether they wrote them by hand

00:38:05

and you know the study i i believe was you know people that wrote notes by hand performed better i believe or they understood better and it's it's i think a lot of it is because

00:38:17

you have to be way more selective you have to pay attention to what the teacher is saying because and and filter out what's unimportant versus what the important is because you don't have the time to write down the unimportant stuff you only have time

00:38:30

to collect and select you know the really important stuff because it's slower and harder to write down by hand um and yeah i think i think what you're uh but you know to your point though is

00:38:44

is that then they've they've done more recent studies on um okay well let's compare let's compare um let's see what actually happens when you write down you know on a tablet you know or like a remarkable

00:38:56

tablet or like a ipad tablet and there's actually been um pretty good signs or like results from just the act of writing on it even on a tablet um that have had benefits

00:39:09

um but you know in that study i i haven't read the full the full study you know because i only have so much time but i i i i have you know perused the paper read

00:39:22

the abstract and and i'm like oh that's that's really interesting so um yeah there seems to be something with connected like the motor the motor you know the movement of your body and engaging more physical elements to

00:39:35

stamping in um knowledge and you know creating more metaphysical recall of knowledge so yeah yeah the my reasoning is

00:39:47

on the level of the method actually the same so um to me this uh this physical aspect of uh creating like external context is similar to the

00:40:00

memory palace so like you you're creating like a like almost a haptic space which you can wander through and therefore have something similar like the memories

00:40:12

palace when i when i process my uh the knowledge or create notes i make make it a point that i do something similar like that but it's not

00:40:24

like i would call it arbitrary so because the the the position of the words on the note it's not like containing information it's like more like a

00:40:36

i would call it like a crouch for remembering it and i try to create those um access points in my brain to the knowledge by like finding

00:40:47

uh as men not as many but as me many meaningful connections as possible so for example when i i never just write just information down but i try to

00:41:02

add something to it like evidence on argument or i try to see it's like this is i think the most abstract thing to see beauty in it or ugliness because i i use beauty and

00:41:14

ugliness for example even though it might sound like a bit esoteric um it's like a shortcut to um to hidden patterns so for example if we

00:41:26

see like big predatory cats we immediately see the beauty in it but we don't see beauty like like by by chance or arbitrary because we see the efficiency of the movement

00:41:38

and we are our attention is attracted to big predatory cats because they are one of the most primal predators that really hunted us and therefore it's like like like literally an eye catcher because

00:41:52

you need to pay attention to predatory cats because they are out to eat you and um beauty is just like a feeling for this kind of relevance so i use this trick to uh

00:42:06

think about uh via the lens of beauty about something to get like a quick access to relevancy usefulness to efficiency and something like that and this processing of the note

00:42:20

of the knowledge is um use basically the same reasoning as the level of processing so it's like adding access points but um

00:42:33

to me the it's not like exclusively you you can and of course you should do in my opinion do it in your analog settled custom but this is something i experienced that

00:42:45

um i don't i wouldn't say that it makes the benefits of the analog telecasting obsolete because it's like cumulative

00:42:56

but um i have no issues with remembering at all so i think i have like 12 100 nodes approximately now and it's like there's no single node i don't recognize when i stumble on it

00:43:10

and it's not like because i missed a super duper or have like this insane memory but it's only because i follow a method that uh that brings me to uh to creating

00:43:23

a lot of connections and like really like reworking the material it's like the same like rewriting the more you rewrite stuff the better you remember but the rewriting should be in a certain manner so if you just

00:43:35

paraphrase it and like parroting like with slightly variations the benefit is not that high in memory and not in understanding because i try to think of it um

00:43:48

the or think of the process of cell custom in opposition to space repetitions because the space repetition is basically training yourself a behavior so you have a question and

00:44:01

then you can uh react with a certain behavior and you train yourself like a like a dog basically that's basically kind of like using using inky right uh yeah or exactly yeah yeah it's like that's

00:44:13

called like maintenance rehearsal in uh in the science of human memory it's basically just re reintroducing yourself to to the concept how you kind of hammer it into your mind versus elaborative rehearsal is kind of what you're talking about and

00:44:26

what you do which is to uh elaborate on more dimensions that the the the knowledge you know uh that relates to in order to create like more of a a visual stamp on your mind

00:44:39

right yeah and i to to me this is actually i i hit two birds with one stone so because if you understand something and like really connect it to a lot of

00:44:51

things and create meta patterns and so on so forth the um the repetition or the the recall is just just happening automatically because because you've

00:45:03

taken the time to deliberately create a a visual almost uh like memory castle uh type of um uh

00:45:15

visual image in your head for the note that relates to either beauty or ugliness is that what you're saying uh no and but the i think it's it's actually

00:45:28

the similarity of to the uh to the memory castle comes because it's exactly the opposite in one way so the memory castle uses arbitrary

00:45:40

links to the information because there's actually no no added information if you place uh effect in your in the kitchen of the castle or in the cellar of the castle it's just a trick

00:45:53

to remember it yeah yeah it's it's the uh method of loki is i believe but they get the ancient greeks call it it's like you basically pin a an idea onto a physical object and you

00:46:06

know it's funny it's like every self-help memory trick book you know and i've taken him back in the day you know it was like uh god it was by kevin trudeau it was like you know mega memory you know it's like one of those infomercial courses and it's

00:46:19

basically teaching you how to do uh uh you know like yeah the method of loki remem memory castles okay but yeah but it's so sorry so you're saying like the the it's arbitrary and it doesn't it doesn't matter

00:46:31

of of of whether you link the item to the kitchen or you link it to another yeah but what i am doing is creating non-arbitrary places if you uh if you

00:46:43

will because for example what would be a good example um let's see yeah for an example would be um

00:46:57

uh dominance or competence hierarchy so this is kind of stuff i don't um jordan peterson talked a lot about this competence and dominance hierarchy stuff and i

00:47:08

um his his view on it was it is old so it is uh like persistent so it's like a it's basically a very old argument of existence so existence is persistence

00:47:21

and um this is what he uses like in in this evolution so it's it's anti-fragile because it it you know it has been evolved over human history basically yeah yes yes and

00:47:34

i use what i call a lindi filter for uh for such things so i try to um to find evidence for existence on uh all levels of time so i have all this

00:47:47

lobster stuff or researched all this lobster stuff but i did the same research on primates on mammals on on people and even

00:48:01

researchers researched it on a more abstract level so how is the actual game theory of competence hierarchy working and so in my mind it's like a um

00:48:13

not like a skyscraper because it does doesn't have so much stages but it's like very similar so when i go uh when i think about like competence hierarchy i i rather call it competence

00:48:25

hierarchy because it's uh like more appropriate to our human species i think of it like in those um in those stages and um but the stage in itself it's not like

00:48:38

meaningless like the like a castle um but it has meaning by um it has meaning by uh oh my my charger comes thank you

00:48:53

it has meaning because the stages are connected uh logically and uh within a coherent model and this in my opinion makes it uh

00:49:05

superior to just having a memory castle um because um yeah because the meaning itself so the connection itself is meaningful and so adds to the knowledge and it's not like

00:49:20

just one arbitrary information that i hold in my brain does it make sense yeah i think basically you have multiple levels that stack on on top of one another and are are related to one

00:49:33

another so instead of it just being a uh a you're kind of talking about like more of like a uh a memory memory period or something where you know at

00:49:46

sorry a a memory pyramid you know like where where at the very bottom of like you know is like and you go by time period uh but but the uh the very

00:49:59

bottom it serves as a foundation and then you know it's it's related and tied into the next one and the next one you know next level up and stuff like that okay and that is just one form it's like now this this might be a stage

00:50:13

and sometimes it's uh it's circular sometimes it's um it has many forms yeah and and i think what what this shows is that you you have uh taken the

00:50:25

deliberate time and a lot of energy to process and elaborate and create you know this whole and construct this whole thing in which you know compared to

00:50:37

let's say other digital note-taking or taking practices where you know they're just collecting information and checking it once you know and creating the note once and then adding like you know eight tags to it and like you know four four

00:50:50

links to it and creating this like you know just um i don't know this this hyperactive mess essentially you're you you you you are disciplined enough uh to slow down you know your mind and

00:51:03

thinking and apply a lot of these um i would say uh frameworks or methodologies to uh to the note in order to process it and have it fit into you know your your your memory uh

00:51:15

pyramid um and build a really solid structure one one foundational layer at a time yeah and this is yeah this is basically i i wouldn't call it common ground it's

00:51:28

like common ground sounds like we have some uh french war and now we are finding some something in the middle but it's like a commonality of our our argumentation it's not like

00:51:40

the important thing is that you process deeply yes exactly i think this or this is um my understanding that uh why you are promoting the analog version because it's

00:51:53

there's no other way around like processing you can't be lazy you can't lazily process information when you write it by hand and especially if it's a four by six inch note card you know that that

00:52:05

that you you fill up it's uh there's no other option you don't have to have discipline you know to to uh force yourself to like you know to uh to process notes deeply because you

00:52:17

know there is no other option you have you have to write it by hand you think deeply when writing it slows your mind down i think this is something robert carro he's a great author talked about um you know and he's still his his he was in an

00:52:30

interview like one of my one of my uh you know one of the the anti-netters sent this to me on twitter basically is uh you know like he was in an interview and and he was talking about his writing

00:52:43

process and yeah he had a uh he had a teacher back in the day because he was like a newspaper writer and so he he would just bust out content by typing on a typewriter and just bust it out um

00:52:55

really fast and one of his mentors and professors said you know you need you need to stop thinking by keyboard you need to you know start thinking with your pen and paper and to this day he's

00:53:07

he's his writing process is to write by hand everything and then type it type what he wrote by hand you know into the uh onto the keyboard um

00:53:19

and uh yeah that's that's that's basically my my argument there's a lot of people that have that that benefit from thinking this way as well is some people some people just don't have the i would say the the

00:53:32

uh the the discipline or the they don't know or they're not aware of a lot of the a lot of the deep level processing methods that uh that that you've seemed to make a habit is you know

00:53:46

constructing your own like memory pyramid and uh deeply processing notes um in such a way whereas whereas i think that uh some people like to you

00:53:57

know deeply process notes by uh thinking thinking by writing having the the pen disentangle your thoughts through you know the course of writing by hand and um you know there's a lot of people that

00:54:10

like jerry seinfeld every single morning for his whole life he has you know written his jokes by hand on a legal pad same with you know maya angelou wrote you know her poetry and books on a yellow legal pad there's you know the

00:54:24

guys like robert greene that off what's the legal pet it's like a yellow it's like a a yellow yellow paper pad i don't know ah okay i i saw it in the

00:54:36

movies yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah i might i don't have one i i personally don't like i don't like writing on them i'd rather write in like a mole sky notebook or you know i mean what i what i really write in is four four by six inch you

00:54:49

know no cards but um yeah there's uh yeah i i really i think a lot of people is you know writing by hand forces the the deep processing in my uh at least for me better than than

00:55:01

digital does um but uh yeah there's there's you know jordan peterson is you know he's he's i think i've posted it in the forums has done the memory castle he's

00:55:14

constructs all of his books by first creating like a memory castle for his theory and then and then he you know he then he every everything he reads and during his research he he kind

00:55:25

of fits into that memory castle um one of the things that i've that it brought up to me was i'm like okay well the only problem with that methodology

00:55:39

is having you know a well-organized memory castle like so for instance like his when he was writing um the 12 rules for life he probably constructed a memory castle of 12 things

00:55:51

you know 12 12 uh rooms or areas on his memory castle and then he would do research and then he would like all the things that he would he would come across he would just fit into that that

00:56:03

um that memory castle the 12 areas my only issue with that is i wonder if if uh it it has a higher proclivity you know these memory castles for inducing confirmation bias

00:56:16

and you know like the to the man with a hammer every every problem looks like a nail you know to a man with a memory castle everything he comes across looks like he can be fit into you know a room on the

00:56:30

memory castle so it almost induces confirmation bias of trying to fit any odd example you know into one of his 12 rules um and yeah that's that's something that

00:56:44

i think and that's something i think that lumens system in the the you know his his settle cost and kind of uh did a good really did a good job of

00:56:57

not falling prey into is because his system was ordered chaos you know it was it was essentially you know this never-ending and infinitely internally branching

00:57:11

uh memory castle right that that if you couldn't fit it into like a certain you know room like one of the 12 rooms it's like that's fine you create a new branch and have it evolve and you've like instead of having

00:57:24

you know a uh 12 ro uh 12 rooms on your or 12 areas on your memory castle you know lumen had you know 1200 uh different ways to you know

00:57:37

pin information on his tree of knowledge and i think it allowed him at least for lumen allowed him to be way more comfortable with chaos and complexity and see a lot more interesting patterns

00:57:50

in you know instead of it being a memory castle it was like a memory tree with uh 1200 different branches that you can navigate around just fine because your map to that

00:58:02

to that tree was by way of the index right that he had and the key term index which also allows him to like stamp on ideas into his mind you know by writing out the index you know key terms right

00:58:15

and thinking things certain ways um and uh that's that's my one and only contention with the the the memory castle that jordan peter peterson described i think it has potentially a risk of inducing

00:58:28

confirmation bias because you're trying to see the world through your memory castle instead instead of accepting and being okay with the sheer and utter complexity of knowledge and information you know and it's like some

00:58:41

and um uh yeah and you know it's funny is i don't know if you you heard this but johann schmidt was talking about um uh

00:58:51

uh lumen and in this podcast um and it's on youtube it's called like the undisciplined it's funny name for a channel but the the channel is called undisciplined i believe or undisciplined philosophy it's

00:59:05

it's a pretty cool pretty cool podcast and they talk a lot about like systems theory and sociology and stuff um but he had one interview with johannes schmidt talking about lumen and the settle costume

00:59:17

and uh one of the one of the people that lumen debated was i think jurgen habermas i don't know that's i think yeah and that they had like a famous debate in the the late 70s

00:59:29

about sociology and habermas came from like the frankfurt school of i think sociology and and um his ideas and conventions were very

00:59:41

kind of uh i would call like maybe more based on like very clear categories and like you know like a memory castle and whereas lumen was like you know like just he was uh almost like a

00:59:54

uh a deep intellectual complex you know almost his theories were like abstract and seemingly absurd sounding they were very paradoxical and really funny and they're very very complex right

01:00:07

and uh someone asked um uh lumen whether he thought jurgen habermas used a zettel costin and uh lumen recounted

01:00:20

lumen said you know for his theoretical works i think a you know a simple uh system uh based on topic organization would do just fine you know it's like

01:00:32

because his his theories and theoretical or habermas's theories were so simplistic and based on like you know maybe a uh you know i won't say hilarious i wouldn't say simplistic i would

01:00:44

rather say like mechanical or static and uh luma's theory is i think that this is like a real difficulty if you like try to understand lumen is oh yeah uh he basically

01:00:59

developed an organic theory to understand an organic thing and i don't don't mean like living but just uh um like self self referential and uh

01:01:13

autoph uh german how is it in english i think it's i i yeah i've looked it up i think it's autopiosis or auto autopilosis yes in germany it's

01:01:25

more more simple to me uh other places yeah but it's like self-creating so it's basically uh there's the the worm uroboros it's it's a snake that bites or eats its

01:01:39

whole uh its own uh tail so this is kind of the the the outline of uh of lumens theory so and he uh he said himself it was very difficult to write his books because

01:01:53

every chapter could be included in any other chapter exactly you could start anywhere but yeah yeah yeah but it made it difficult because you could both start anywhere yet start nowhere in the grand

01:02:05

scheme of things because you know there's no friendly introduction yet after you after you make that hurdle and you understand what lumen is saying in like his overall theory then you can start anywhere so it's like this paradox

01:02:19

it's like you can't start anywhere but in the beginning you can't start anywhere yeah i think to me this was or i find that to me lumen was not that simple but not that difficult i mean to

01:02:32

understand uh what i what i read at least but it was more because i'm willing to read a lot without understanding a lot so yeah i think this this is a strategy you just read and

01:02:44

just accept what you under that you understand just a little bit and then if you plow through it's fine if you like one or two books and then with a third or fourth books you just remember things

01:02:56

and because of this uh um self or the circle the circle like structure then you get into like um uh like a you you

01:03:08

a cell phone not a self feeling prophecy what's the bot it's like a you start a dynamic that that creates a positive feedback loop you the more understand the more you can like fill in and uh and remember

01:03:21

and re-understand so to say so you understand now things that you didn't understand before and then you get yourself moving but the difficult or the danger with luma's theory is it's so

01:03:32

abstract that i attended like a like a meeting and um about lumen i think it was about one to his birthday or something like that and then i

01:03:46

listened for like 90 minutes and he was like i don't name anyone but it was like it was a high level uh lumen expert but not zunker argens and um

01:03:58

i basically sat there for 90 minutes and i really didn't understand anything and then i thought about that in uh in the pause and then it struck me i didn't understand anything because i was too

01:04:10

stupid i didn't understand anything because there wasn't anything that could be understood and then i tested my hypothesis and asked some some other listeners and

01:04:23

many uh try to like pretend that there was something to be understood in the beginning of our conversation and we're oppressed a little bit and have like a the opportunity of being

01:04:35

very disagreeable and have like very little politeness like after a couple of minutes they all broke down and said no it was ba i didn't understand anything but i think they were too polite and

01:04:48

like bought into the game of university too much to admit that there even wasn't anything and that's the danger of luman's theory in my opinion yeah so the uh have you

01:04:59

read the radical lumen yet that book uh no okay so it was by um hans i think george hans george muller and he is a

01:05:12

philosophy professor he he wrote about the radical lumen or uh he wrote about lumen's radical theories and um he recounted in the very beginning a a story about him and his colleagues they

01:05:24

went to they had the same exact experience as you so they went to a uh it they went to something i don't know if it was it was about lumen i think it might have been it was talking about lumens theories or

01:05:36

something and moeller uh someone one of his colleagues turned to him after the talk it was like you know an hour talk and and he turned to mueller and he was all

01:05:49

excited he's like he's like i literally did not understand a thing in what what just what they just told me and he's like isn't this exciting isn't it awesome so it's almost seen as this um

01:06:01

this this this badge or this uh certification that you are really really smart and you've done great work if you've abstracted something so much that no one can understand you know what you are saying or thinking and uh i think

01:06:15

that that is a that is a tendency i don't think it's the most helpful one um that that i i i don't think lumen purposely found himself uh falling into this trap you know or or doing this but

01:06:27

uh you know but but yeah that's that's that's how is you know this theoretical work has has turned out and it's it's uh i think it's paradox because you know here lumen was is creating this

01:06:39

30-year theory of everything for society you know in like 70 books yet you know if he were alive today it's like the the uh the thing that has become even at least within the popular arena in the

01:06:52

world the thing that has become more popular than his actual uh you know output and his work because it's too complex is his actual zeddle costume his notebox you know he would come back and be like i think he'd

01:07:03

be like yeah he would be just like i don't know if he would be that shocked with like you you know either because he's like oh my god like humans humanity you know it's just like yeah really like like uh i spent my entire life you know

01:07:17

and career creating a really profound and complex theory of everything but it was too complex for the common person to really engage with um but yeah i uh

01:07:28

the the thing is though is that my point is that a lot of people are you know they come across the subtle cost and and especially like the analog one and they're like wait i you know then they try to read lumen's work and they're

01:07:41

like wait a minute like i don't want to sound like lumen you know and they maybe they may have the fear that if they adopt like the xenocaustin that all of their work is going to be uh very pedantic confusing

01:07:54

you know abstract highbrow like people are going to understand them and that was actually the at the time that was like the the intellectual it was almost like a badge of honor to be more complex and confusing

01:08:07

and like lumen had no incentive that was almost like the german i think this is what elise moeller said is the german academic sociological climate at the time was to write in such

01:08:19

a way uh that lumen wrote still like that really at least like 10 years ago when i was in university um it was still like that and in philosophy we actually made a little

01:08:33

bit fun of that because social the sociologist they couldn't talk straight and we um in bitterfield there is um it's quite analytical uh or the style of philosophy

01:08:45

is quite analytical so it's um it's very uh it's very stressed to be very clear up to the point of like writing or talking boring

01:08:58

to make it as understandable as possible and the the sociology department like like skip this part it's like and i think it's like academic thing

01:09:10

it's it's academic thing i wouldn't i wouldn't be surprised or not even i think some when when i um here's some uh american like uh academics talk and they

01:09:21

come from a dif a similar background sometimes you clearly feel that they try or it's not like they try it's like they they just adopt this habit of of talking

01:09:35

very complex and uh talking very abstractly and like also associating it like with the mode of being and i think when they go uh go to the club or i don't know go to

01:09:46

the sauna or the um they just lose this persona and just talk like normal people about normal stuff yeah yeah yeah it's almost like it's almost like a mask or a persona yeah in which in which yeah people

01:10:00

feel like sociologists or academics feel like they can keep their job and um you know by uh by by talking in that way yeah so but how do we find back to the topic of cell

01:10:11

customers i know yeah yeah yeah so yeah that's that's that's what i was going to say is i i think i think that the main point in in all of this is the um is is kind of what i just touched upon

01:10:23

is that you know the the the fear that someone will uh start writing books as complex and it's uh one person called it's soporific which is like sleep inducing um that the

01:10:37

the fear that your your work will start to turn into that from adopting a zettle costume especially an analog one i i think is an unfounded fear i think i think that that was more the the uh had to do with the academic

01:10:50

climate that lumen was in but um yeah yeah let's let's try to get back to our our analog and digital um should we try to try to follow that uh that template that i outlined in the email of um

01:11:02

you know i i wrote down like just a you know a few bullet points quick words you know to um to go down that but i think it was like we each take a turn um going through those uh those three areas

01:11:14

and um yeah why don't we why don't we do that yeah so start i need to uh make it by memory because i switch computers and have it on digital okay so everyone knows but but it's fine i remember them

01:11:28

okay cool um do you want to go first uh i don't know go you first so i can associate something yeah cool all right so uh digital the first so yeah so i'll just preface the the

01:11:41

viewers i'm sure they loved our little meandering uh trail into sociology land and lumen land it's uh that's probably a separate separate uh podcaster show but um yeah what sasha and i uh talked about

01:11:54

is kind of coming up with a structure for like digital and versus uh versus analog you know or yeah and and the comparison of them and i suggested that um

01:12:06

the following structure so we would each take turns and we would say you know what we like about digital uh and what we think digital is doing a good job at um what we like about analog what analog is doing a good job at and uh for me i

01:12:19

would say what i want to see more of out of digital and for sasha he would he would end his and what he would like to see more of out of analog or basically the the um you know uh the the the issues or

01:12:33

unq questions that still remain unanswered about analog and yeah so uh anyways i'll go first so for for what i really like out of digital and where i where i think

01:12:45

digital has really done a good job um in the in the field of uh of you know knowledge development i i call it knowledge development instead of knowledge management or pcam but yeah where i really think uh digital has done

01:12:58

a great job of is i think i think it's popularized the idea of actually uh working with notes you know visualizing notes especially like the you know the nice little digital which i'm not a huge

01:13:10

fan of like the whole obsidian graphs you know i don't think they're that helpful i think they're more distracting than than helpful in my opinion but with that there's been a lot of digital tools of viewing your knowledge how it connects and

01:13:23

uh certain things and i think it's introduced and created a conversation around uh knowledge and how we actually you know build knowledge the processes we go through so i've really liked that

01:13:35

out of uh and i think digital has really um allowed us to take a step back and look at you know by by looking at our notes and saying oh my god like that's that's really interesting how our notes can be viewed as nodes you know that

01:13:48

that are all interconnected um i also think that i really like how um all the digital tools that have come out have really popularized this almost fringe area you know like it it was

01:14:02

the concept of looking at at note-taking um i think was a very small fringe fringe area like you know there is there's historians that that look at how scholars you know use their notes like

01:14:14

um uh and and blair is one and she has a book called uh too much to know where she like surveyed a lot of the history of of note-takers back in the day like in how francis bacon took his notes and all that stuff but it was very small

01:14:28

niche now with like pkm and this digital stuff and settle costing and even obsidian they've kind of like repopularized and made the idea of um thinking about note-taking um

01:14:43

really more more popular again and um so i think that's that's something that's awesome that digital has brought to the forefront um and i really really i think that the best thing is is it's

01:14:55

about like digital note-taking is um it has it has brought together like a a great community of people that are committed to knowledge and learning right like that the settle costs and de

01:15:08

community and even the settle you know the settle cost and reddit forum um you know these are all people that are committed to growth learning and knowledge it's it's awesome like and there's a lot of really interesting ways

01:15:20

of of uh of growing and you know uh reading better and capturing knowledge better and extracting knowledge better from books uh thanks to this community and thanks to like you know digital notetaking and and all the the

01:15:34

popularization that has come out of it um you know like i i my last company and like what i did previous to this was you know in the cryptocurrency realm and it's a completely different type of audience you know in the cryptocurrency

01:15:48

like i would say 80 or more of the people that i was interacting with in that community were speculators and which is basically they wanted to make more money without lifting a finger you know they just

01:16:00

basically wanted to make a ton of money without lifting a finger invest in you and if the price of cryptocurrency went down like they were you were getting hate mail like they were hating your guts and you know these are people that are like

01:16:13

you know that are that that would you know it's they would hate the idea of actually reading and growing their mind and stuff like that you know and i think this digital community of the digital note-taking has uh

01:16:26

really brought in like a really uh great group of uh great community of people and um so yeah like as far as like what i like out of digital it's i think the i think it's

01:16:38

it's uh introduced a lot of really good questions that have uh uh helped people you know in their practice of extracting knowledge and especially the

01:16:49

yeah and uh so that's what i like out of uh like you know like what's come out of digital um and as far as

01:17:01

yeah yeah because i mean like especially with what you've created settle costume.de there's a chance i would not have even heard of subtle costs than um had it not been for you and christian and what you guys have created and that

01:17:12

has been kind of the missing link for for me out of my what shortcomings in my own analog system you know um so that's it's been amazing and uh and interacting with the community of diverse people so

01:17:25

um so analog what i like about analog and the thing you know the first thing on my list is the ghost in the box factor and the collaborative communication partner you know and

01:17:37

this is something that you know my biggest gripe is like when you search when you search um you know zettelcosten uh online or even in youtube like you know the all you come across is like

01:17:49

this regurgitation of uh a sanke aaron's you know fleeting notes and permanent notes in the literature notes and you don't really understand like what it is and it's like you know and you're just taken into this this uh

01:18:02

you know a tutorial of obsidian and using wikileaks and tags and all this stuff right and i'm like and you have to do a lot of digging to find out what lumen actually how he actually thought about it and thought about his zettel costin

01:18:15

and you know his the title of his paper that he wrote on the settle costume is communicating with uh noteboxes right communication is the communication is the foundation of his

01:18:27

is his um the starting point of how he actually explained it he talked about it as if it was a communication partner he also talked about it as was his alter ego that he was interacting with while he

01:18:39

would write papers and in his own notes on his his settle costs and he you know refers to it as like a ghost in a box or a specter in a box it's like an incommunicable experience

01:18:52

and of of working with his old his whole it's almost like you know his consciousness is is essentially locked into that box because he sees his own handwriting his own thoughts and his own

01:19:05

personality you know that has been injected into the notes over time and so whenever he writes he had that um you know that red typewriter on his desk and uh you know he would have a very small desk right and so he he would have this

01:19:18

small desk with this big pot of tea and uh you know his notes from his settle costume and he would you know write and it was a communication experience where he would because there's no copy and pasting there's no

01:19:30

there's no there's no grabbing and copying your notes from your your you know digital no file and putting it in and then trying to rewrite around that no like you had to you had

01:19:42

to you know grab your notes like you know like on your desk you know and look down at it and write and rewrite and re-understand that voice that wrote it you know and it's almost like this ghost in this box this communication partner

01:19:55

aspect of that and so that is something that is i think a lot of people miss or they don't see they're not even aware of um you know they searched settle costan and and they are they're just presented with um

01:20:07

you know some like fleeting notes and literature notes and obsidian tutorial stuff um so that's one thing i i think let me let me shortly interject i think

01:20:18

there's a good reason for that in my experience it has its head has a similar pattern to what henry ford did to the automobile

01:20:31

industry so before him it was basically like a few people built one car at a time and he basically broke up the process so you had like i don't know how many but

01:20:43

like dozens people a dozen people and each individual had just one one motion to do and the industrialization specialization right yeah and the the result was that

01:20:56

each individual didn't know anything and all the knowledge was in the process and my suspicion is that the promise of the settle custom that the paper

01:21:08

just write themselves it's like a very prominent process a promise around the telecast method lead to the to the thinking that you basically reduce your

01:21:20

the need for yourself and all the intelligence all the proficiency is put into a system and you have something doing for you and you treat yourself more like a like a

01:21:33

worker on a an assembly line just being and having all just a simple a simple motion that you have to do and then the end product will be

01:21:45

but will be very complex and very sophisticated because the intelligence is embedded in the process and when you think about that it's very natural that people try to figure out

01:21:58

how the assembly line works because this is where all the money is so and i think if you use zunker argent's concepts i think it's very natural to to

01:22:12

like being uh very interested in those concepts because the normal concept is like sometimes it differs in uh in the interpretation but basically you have like a beginning stage

01:22:25

where the fleeting notes are and uh something like that and it it's coupled with the literature notes so functionally there's very little difference because it's all before that settle custom then you go

01:22:37

into the settle custom and create permanent nodes in order for permanent nodes then you do something else and it's like basically very similar to this assembly line model and um i think

01:22:49

um yeah i think this might be the driving the driving motivation or perhaps more the pattern of um the the mass psychology behind the the

01:23:02

domain uh of cell custom right now or the misunderstanding so it's people think most of the time that there are something very special in the process and the more you enhance the process the

01:23:16

more you enhance the product without basically training yourself or improving yourself and i think this is um i might be not good at messing messaging messaging uh that to me it's right the

01:23:29

opposite so the process is very simple and it's about the tools within the title custom so this is why i personally talk about the layers of evidence for example so you divide up the phenomenon

01:23:41

the interpretation and the synthesis of what you what you process to create a certain architecture being analog or digital doesn't matter or um i talk about if you process for

01:23:53

example fiction then you have like tools that you that you embed in a cell custom and whenever you try to analyze something you like match the tools and and what you are trying to

01:24:05

analyze and then have something like yeah like like a real tool that you can use but more similar to like uh like having a toolbox and then needing to go out and like building a complex thing

01:24:20

yourself by being yourself having a complex set of skills so this might be um yeah this might be the reasoning why people uh um

01:24:33

think about i think a lot about the tool so for example the software and all the plugins and features and so on and think or believe that the power or complexity of the tool

01:24:46

is tied to the to the sophistication of the end product they are striving for being acknowledged a publication or a habit change or something like that

01:24:59

yeah i i i uh yeah i actually i like the uh the output that you just described as being a habit change that's uh you know that's in an interesting one too i think that's

01:25:11

what a lot of people strive for as well it's not just just you know when i say creative output it's not just you know a writing piece or a book or you know it could be any any creative output it could be an online course it could be a video podcast you

01:25:24

know whatever uh or or have a change you know or training plan for yeah for your for your exercise uh schedule yeah yeah um yeah no i think i think you've you've described that that's an interesting um

01:25:37

it's an interesting way of putting it is yeah people immediately want to understand the whole assembly line you know because they want to predict uh in order to in order to uh foresee and predict and get a better sense of uh if this will

01:25:50

or how this creates a you know a model t you know like and they want to see it all fit together um yeah um yeah why don't i keep going down uh i've got uh yeah the

01:26:04

the other one i think we've already touched upon it the other thing i like you know around about um the analog of course is the the writing by hand i think it slows the mind down and the serenity and it really just forces that

01:26:15

there's there's um you know you have a you have a fantastic method you know that you've trained and learned yourself for elaborative rehearsal right by by um

01:26:28

taking yourself through a series of uh practices or steps or processes um you know like like you know to build your own memory pyramid and uh and to research you know across

01:26:40

different time periods to find examples you know one of one of my favorite elaborative rehearsal practices is you know the process of inverting you know like uh turning the trying to find a counter example for every single idea

01:26:53

you know that that is something that takes so much uh mind energy you know to do is like you know if you try to make a point try to make the exact opposite point um i think that's a practice that people ought to do more more often is

01:27:06

you know especially like you know i'm a big proponent of uh you know i i'm a big fan of the exploration experience of working with an analog settle costing versus search you know a lot of people

01:27:19

are like oh i can never go to the analog medium because uh there's no full text search and i'm thinking i'm saying like actually you know invert that idea you know how is search actually bad or the

01:27:30

worst thing you know for for you actually developing knowledge you know and and start exploring that question like inverting inverting your own assumptions i think is a it's a good thing to do and we could talk more on that

01:27:43

in that later probably during your uh thing uh we don't need to go down the search rabbit hole we should talk about that you know at some point um oh we can go to any rabbit hole yeah yeah let's set that let's let's open that browser

01:27:56

tab aside i i want to kind of get through mine i'm almost almost done is the the other thing i like about analog and this is you know how lumen read was he would read you know his books and he would have i call them bib cards they're

01:28:08

the bibliography cards you know he on the front he would have the bibliography information and then on the back he would have a very condensed short list that he would he would select things you know from his from his readings and then

01:28:20

have to be forced to actually take the time to write it by write it down by hand and put the page number and they're very brief and simple you know but i think what what that creates like you

01:28:32

have to be selective about what you read like i you know for reading like i've printed out a bunch of they're down there on the floor is i have printed out you know you're zettlecostin you and christians that'll cost in de

01:28:44

blog writings i printed them out you know to physically go through them and write on like the bib card you know and it forces me i can't read as rapidly you know it's like i think i think a lot of how people read on online articles and

01:28:57

stuff like that today is there just it's it's almost like this hyperactive collection mode of digital information and you know the i think it's that that uh herbert

01:29:09

simon the nobel prize he won a nobel prize and i i read this in in a book um a while back but he said with the the influx in the abundance of information it means the dearth

01:29:22

of another factor and that is attention you know so with with with digital tools you know uh is and you're scanning online articles you're you know just clicking the pocket

01:29:35

collect pocket button and then like you know collecting a ton of information putting it in evernote this is not so much the digital settle costs in practice you know like even just a really good methodology right but like

01:29:47

you know the people that teach um you know using evernote to collect everything i think it's actually i think it's actually a con rather than a pro i think we need tools that that that

01:30:00

confine us to having to be very selective about the books we choose to read the material we choose to read and what we select from the sources that we choose to read you

01:30:13

know so that's a another thing i like about analog is it forces you to select less sources of information and then process them more deliberately slower in a you know kind of deep work type of

01:30:26

type of way and um yeah then and then because you're forced to select less sources of information and extract less material from those very selective sources of information

01:30:40

right it allows you it's like a paradox occurs where you actually are able to use more material and pro and process it have more time to process that material and

01:30:52

then use it in your creative output um and yeah so that that concludes the things i like about analog i'm trying to be brief not list you know a bunch of other things right um

01:31:05

the the more the okay so for the the the things that i would like to see more of out of digital and out of uh digital note-taking apps and note-taking tools and notes or digital zettle costumes

01:31:19

is the i think the the first thing is i would like to see people instead of um you know going and watching obsidian videos and tutorials and then jumping into trying to create and understand your own settle

01:31:31

costing right i think it would be beneficial for people to first start with building out their own analog settle cost and even for like you know two or three weeks and do it the lumen

01:31:43

way you know do it like the way of using a bib card you know and going you know reading a book using a bib card to write down brief observation notes which are just like you know maybe

01:31:54

one to four words right for each page and then turning those the bib card observation notes into an actual main card and then you know evolving and adding numeric alpha addresses to the main card

01:32:07

do that for like two to three weeks to understand how lumen did it and then create your own digital zettlecoston i think i would like to see that more out of digital so that people

01:32:18

i think it would lead to less confusion because some people think it's uh some people they think that settle costing is just a

01:32:30

you know hyperlinks of notes it's almost like your own personal website right with just hyperlinks of your ideas and uh i think it's it's i think they'll come into a different and then they then

01:32:43

after they create like you know a thousand notes or something then they like you know hit a point of despair like that that one rank and file article you know where he's like oh i'm left with this digital mess you know and i

01:32:54

think people will avoid that that point of despair less if they first take the time to create a an analog settle cost and for two to three weeks the lumen way um yeah so that that's one thing i think

01:33:09

i think i would like to see more of out of digital or explore and the second thing i'd like to see more out of digital is i think it'd be fun to experiment and see more digital zettlecostins that have the properties of the analog settle

01:33:22

costing so there was like i don't know how i got on this but i got on this like beta tester you know list for this new note-taking app that was coming out or that's probably still coming out and

01:33:34

it was pretty cool it was like a mix between like obsidian and trello like you you had like little cards and stuff like that and so you know i i hopped on and uh did like you know the beta tester customer

01:33:46

feedback thing you know because he wanted to just introduce the product to me and have me give feedback and my feedback was i'm like okay first delete the search the search box

01:33:59

and second you know delete delete the ability to edit notes um you know only only allow people to append notes and then you know third is i want you to like add a um

01:34:11

a character limit to your notes kind of like twitter and i want it to be like only like you know the character limit of like a four by six inch card right and then i want you to delete the uh the functionality of copy and pasting and

01:34:24

then i want you to delete you know like and i thought that was like really that was it it's because i wanted to delete the search to force people to use the index and you know he he was he was really cool and awesome but he was like

01:34:36

yeah i i think we're we're going to go in a different direction you know it's like uh but what i would really like to see is like try to to see people create um you know like create

01:34:47

these digital note-taking apps uh uh and and inverting their their commonly held beliefs that you know search is super beneficial and i think it'll be interesting to see how

01:35:00

people build their own knowledge by creating manual indexes and i think there's a huge value to being forced to create your own key term index like i'm forced to create my own key term index because there's no safety

01:35:12

net you know there's there's uh if a concept is truly important then i have to actually invest the time and energy to creating a key term for it which is beneficial because it it means that the key terms that i have the things that i

01:35:26

can find are only the very very important things you know so um yeah um i think the i think what that will introduce is very

01:35:37

odd and unconventional personalities and structures in your notes which will give it more personality for it to become your alter ego or you know which lumen referred to his as is just weird structures so

01:35:50

yeah that's that's that is it for for me that's my uh my my three areas um so yeah then i will do it in reverse so we'll

01:36:02

start start with analog and go to the digital but i see i'm looking like a ghost i will first make some light yeah yeah oh cool so you see my

01:36:17

perhaps a little bit yeah it was it's it's what time is it there is it like uh like nine nine pm okay yeah it's like slowly getting darker and darker yeah

01:36:29

so to me the analog um the analog system or the analog telecaster one of the most important things that it does right

01:36:43

is iteration um because i think um with this automation craze there comes um there comes a loss of iteration so when you have an analog

01:36:55

system you have first the reading process uh or like actually like reading it then the next step would be uh in your version for example you would

01:37:06

write the note on your bib card and then you have the next iteration of writing the actual note for the cell custom so settle and the other the next iteration would be finding a

01:37:20

place uh creating or giving it a number and um uh yeah so you have like several steps of processing and it forces you to have the step several steps of processing

01:37:34

the other thing is the on the ground view because you have no higher level view you can't like have like seeing all your cards so you go have to like read your cards

01:37:47

and i don't think it's i think the benefit of it is that you [Music] pressure load your working memory this is how i think how

01:37:59

the new ideas emerge and this is how you have the feeling of that cell custom giving you new things because your brain is basically like a pattern

01:38:11

searching machine so um even our perception is like that so i don't see the computer uh and or the thing on my desk and like having consciously see a computer or

01:38:24

construct my environment and this is how optical illusions work so the optical illusion just hijack the uh the pattern seeking mechanism of your perception and then you you can't help

01:38:35

it you see the people going uh growing bigger and smaller and you you can't overthink it you can't override it no matter what and if you look at your saddle custom or

01:38:48

yeah or let's say you look at your cell custom you basically load information in your brain and you have info the more information or there's a level of of information pressure in your brain that forces your

01:39:00

brain to see patterns in it and this is it feels like your cellular customer will give you something and it feels uh this is how the cell customer feels alive it's like it's pressure loading you

01:39:12

and then something happens and you see a pattern and you have the feeling that settle custom is being a communication partner like giving you a new idea but it's more like a perhaps

01:39:24

one could call it like similar to the optical illusion it plays on the working of your mind and um this is also a reason why the cell custom the analog cell

01:39:36

custom benefits because it is basically just cards and texts so it's minimum distraction the opposite would be something like a word editor or something like that

01:39:48

then you have all the things all the buttons and all the other things that were that are additional things that you hold in your brain in your in in your working memory but it's not useful information so it's

01:40:01

basically you you reduce the amount of information you have that your brain tries or can make useful patterns for you so this is how i think a distracting a

01:40:13

distractive environment especially in a distracting software decreases your ability to have new ideas just by by reducing the quality of information so to say um by or diluting

01:40:27

it by having information that is only necessary to see a button or to orientate yourself on it on the display or in my case now because i'm my girlfriend is freshly moved in and my

01:40:40

flat looks like uh like like a trash bin i have it's an untidy desk i have and so i see a lot of things that i don't need to see and i have a lot of information or perceptions in my brain that just uh

01:40:54

dilute the quality of information and therefore my creativity at the point yeah um yeah yeah with with analog it's kind of what you're saying is it's just the note card with the and a lot of the times

01:41:06

it's you know how like in digital there's especially like obsidian you first have to click into the title right and like there's no even title it's just your actual thought you know you're not trying to compress the thought into a

01:41:19

title but yeah you're saying it's just like an analog you're you're forced with you're presented with just you know a lot of thoughts and then you can flip through a lot of the thoughts back-to-back creating kind of reverberation in your mind to try to

01:41:32

spot patterns and like hold that information in your mind to see more patterns and stuff like that yeah and i think what the analog does right is also it removes yourself

01:41:44

at least for a little bit from the screen and this is kind of a like the modern i call it the uh the disease of modernity and part of it is like looking at screen all the

01:41:56

time and it's quite unhealthy even the act of of looking at the screen itself is unhealthy um not to say what is on the screen so with

01:42:07

all the social media and and so on so forth and it's like actually very beneficial and whenever i i think digital is more efficient and because of that i use digital but if

01:42:22

we have some users for example they are just retired engineers or something like that and i can't remember who it was but one asked me is it okay when i go analog

01:42:35

i don't know it's i think it's unefficient but uh i just enjoy enjoy analog more and i said no it's it's actually less

01:42:47

effective to go digital because you do it for joy and if joy is a factor and the joy of working with your settle custom then analog is the more effective way because

01:42:59

you're doing it for that purpose and effectiveness can only be measured in relation to what you're actually trying to do and so uh imagine he would be it would be very

01:43:11

bad for him to have like a hyper hyper efficient system uh digital system but being not effective for his actual goals like having joy in the knowledge work and just having the

01:43:24

slow development of knowledge but this is this are my i think my main yeah my main points for that that count for the analog version so the iteration so it's like multiple

01:43:36

steps of actually processing so it forces you like for to reformulate it forces you to actually write it down write it down okay not it doesn't force you to write it down in your own words

01:43:48

because you just also can just copy the quote but you actually at least have to like write down by hand and not copy and paste yeah and the other thing is the real the the

01:44:00

on the ground view the third thing is something uh that is partly uh or i could name in the in the third category of question is uh drawing

01:44:14

and i don't see it a lot um i think i never saw or did you find the card in lumens cell custom that contained drawing i have not yet no but i i do i do the practice i think that's

01:44:27

one of the the biggest potential areas is is i have a ton of drawings of diagrams that i've done in my own uh but i i've never seen um which is interesting

01:44:39

so i don't know if you know this i talked to um uh one of lumen's sons um two days ago just to get more more information and you know use it for my book and just learn about lumens practices and stuff

01:44:51

like that and one of lumen's sons is he's an artist in uh uh guatemala an abstract painter and stuff and uh uh lumen's wife um you know who passed

01:45:03

away like you know pretty early on she was like the artist in the in their family and she was like a great artist and painter and he was the intellectual you know he only wrote he had but they were um there is what his son said is

01:45:17

they were like yin and yang they uh you know like lumina was like the intellectual that was always reading very bookish and she was the artist and so um uh it's interesting like yeah so he he

01:45:29

it's just not it didn't fit his personality and who he was to to draw probably i've never seen on one he'd never drew anything um as far as um you know johann schmidt might know

01:45:41

but i don't i don't think he ever did draw yeah it's okay newman of course he did what he uh needed to do for himself but i think um if you go analog you need to

01:45:53

use drawing a lot yes because even i with my uh not even i i i make it a point um and now we can uh we go to the digital version

01:46:05

um i make it a point to draw a lot and you draw an ipad or like a stylus something on paper okay um i think the i think drawing on the ipad or digital is like uh

01:46:19

not not majoring in the minor but it's like to me it's bizarre because the the benefit and the joy of drawing is like not staring at your screen and doing something in the real world

01:46:32

and because of that we have the uh the image capturing function in the archive so it's basically like a like a link from your desk or from your paper

01:46:45

into the archive so what i do a lot is um when i think about something i make a picture or make a diagram or something like that and like have many iterations of the diagram so i

01:46:58

um i move the items around i reverse the arrows or make like a set of pictures or something like that and i just have the similar thing that the analog version forces you

01:47:10

i make a lot of iterations and when i'm satisfied i just hold my uh my picture into the camera and make and capture directly in the archive and

01:47:22

then what i do is i number the i number the the items in the picture um on the on the on the drawing and then i can just refer to the each of the item within my

01:47:35

archive digitally and tonight to remark upon it and reflect upon it yeah exactly and um this is one benefit of the digital it's

01:47:47

uh it can absorb the analog or the many of what i see are the main benefits of the analog so i do a lot of pre-processing or when it's when it's needed a lot of

01:47:59

pre-pressing on paper because it pulls me away from the screen it's always available so when i um when i'm in the woods with my dog then i

01:48:13

it's easier to have like a notebook with me instead of i don't know why people are so obsessed with uh smartphone integration and uh mobile thingies because okay i don't even own a

01:48:25

smartphone because i really did smartphones yeah um but i've been through one of those phases and now i'm back to smartphone but uh back to smartphone oh what what

01:48:37

drove you into the back to the abyss uh i and look and i have it always in do not disturb mode you know so people can't reach me it's you know only only my fiance can can could reach me right

01:48:51

uh but i also have it like sitting way over there but um really really it's like uh maps and navigation i would say primarily and um yeah that's that's really it honestly

01:49:04

like and i've i looked 10 years 10 years ago i did like an experiment where i only had like a flip phone and uh the thing that i just really missed was like the maps and navigation

01:49:17

stuff yeah how how do you how do you handle that that aspect if you're like traveling especially because when i'm traveling and stuff and find stuff on the fly um but yeah i just i ask

01:49:30

really okay that seems fun yeah it's basically it's basically the same what you are trying uh or what you're promoting with analog version so what you are in on not exactly what i think you are

01:49:44

if you're going digital with your with your navigation you lose the ability to actually navigate my my personal navigation is like really it's fuzzy search so when i i'm more of a person i just

01:49:57

i first just do it and then learn during the process of doing and and willing to make many mistakes early on um so when i um in my hometown when i go to

01:50:09

go somewhere i look at the map i see the outline and then i just go by field sometimes i don't even be i'm not even attentive to to the environment and just go in the direction and somehow i end up

01:50:22

in the right place so you use your own your own brain intuition staying a lot more present and um yeah that's interesting that's kind of it's it's funny is because that kind of mirrors the what the process of what it's like

01:50:36

you know finding information in an analog settle costume is is you know you run into a deadline and then you you you're forced to ask yourself okay what what else could this item that i'm

01:50:49

searching for be related to you know or how else can i find it and then you're you're it's kind of shocking how you know you're able to find stuff like i i've i've you know probably searched like i don't

01:51:01

know like thousands of times right for something and i can only remember one one or two instances where i haven't been able to find something in within like you know

01:51:13

five five or ten minutes let's say at max and then in that case i'll put it down as a key term so that when i stumble upon it next i'll be able to like spot it and then can link them both together

01:51:25

and you know i end up finding it like a day later very shortly after but um but yeah it's it's i uh yeah i'm kind of motivated to to try uh to try an analog or try to uh

01:51:39

a smartphone free uh living environment i just buy uh like a physical map and then like do it the old way like folding it open and hating my life because i

01:51:51

don't know how to fold it back and just uh ragequit and just and make a miss and something it's it's to me if if you are somewhere and like

01:52:03

traveling the whole point of traveling is not being efficient unless you have like a like business travel or something yeah yeah yeah but if if you travel in into another city it's it's not important that you that you find what

01:52:16

you are searching for like efficiently it's if you if you get there in a in a reasonable amount of time half an hour more or less is not it's not that important and it brings

01:52:29

you to the actual point of what you are traveling uh it's like this being another world so but on the flip side i don't travel at all it's like very very rarely i'm

01:52:42

like very very not sedentary but very local i don't yeah yeah i just write all the time yeah i like go with my dog and that's all yeah i i just have a few i'm in the same way i like to

01:52:54

i'm a very introverted habitual uh you know person and uh but they're like i've got you know this upcoming month i've got a wedding in in in uh israel you know so i'm like gearing up

01:53:07

for that you know and and uh i travel but like but one more question is what do you do about uber like do you use uber at all do you use like do you just call a cab uber is uh it's not a thing in germany because our bureaucracy i

01:53:20

think it's i think uber uh couldn't is not legal because uh um it's um

01:53:32

a translation would be uh pretend self-employment or something like that so if you have just one employer but are said uh officially self-employed the employer

01:53:44

is forced to pay for uh something that has some insurance for you or something like that and therefore uber couldn't work properly here interesting yeah okay

01:53:55

all right but really i don't i don't uh order something on on any smartphone i just i prefer to call when my girlfriend is ordering something she uses the smartphone or i would prefer to do it on the computer it's

01:54:09

like to me the smartphone is like like a like a like a intruder into into the life of the people and it builds like habits it's to me because people pull it off out of the

01:54:21

pocket and try to stroke it with a with their thumb it's not it's not functionally it's not functioning it's like if they're having a pet but like a like an evil pet that controls your mind this is how i think about yeah i know i

01:54:35

i'm uh yeah i i've i'm i'm better than a lot of people you know like i've deleted social media and all that stuff uh besides twitter you know but uh you know twitter and like

01:54:47

you know i check like youtube comments and all that stuff and uh i've uh but yeah it it it grips you you know like these apps are designed to be like dopamine inducing habits habit creating machines so

01:54:59

yeah that's interesting um yeah sorry sorry to interrupt we went to yeah so digital zoom can yet digital can absorb uh much of the benefits of analog just via

01:55:15

i think the main benefits are iteration and like i said and this this can be done in combination with the digital version so you the last step would be just actually

01:55:27

integrate the the node into uh that settle casting but the pre-processing can be done on paper and to me it's it depends on the topic so sometimes i do a lot of pre-processing and

01:55:40

a lot of time nowadays i don't i don't do any pre-processing so i just read the book just have a dot where something interesting pops up and then i have the book more or less like a

01:55:54

like a thread that orientates me on the topic that i want to think about and that i want to process it and most of the time i'm not even processing what is in the book but what is in the

01:56:07

reference from the book so it's like i'm just going from reference reference because i normally not normally i always read the primary references a reference so sometimes it's like i need to go two steps into the

01:56:20

referencing because some authors like are very indirect with their referencing and reference through other sources and then i need to trail and collect the information down to its

01:56:33

original resource interesting so so um so yeah and that that's like a best practice that i've that i've heard is you know so so for instance if i read a book uh that quotes

01:56:46

you know some other source you know is you're saying that the that oftentimes when you go to the source um that source really got it from another source and then you have to

01:56:58

chase down the other source and to get to the primary source of where where that that that that quote or where that idea was said because you can't just rely on the the secondary source you know that because there's some context

01:57:12

from wherein that original sourced quote from it's just here yeah the data processing if you don't go to the primary source yeah yeah that's interesting kind of similar like you you we every everybody knows like it's in

01:57:24

gossip like the third or fourth step of transmitting the gossip is like changing the message so much no and uh causing of course in the world of course so much problems

01:57:36

that uh if you hear something about somebody from some someone else you are more or less it's more or less guaranteed that it's not correct and like it's 50 misunderstanding 40

01:57:50

like twisting and ten percent is on the truth and it's very similar in to me it's very similar in writing and my experience was basically i think it was 2 000 um

01:58:02

2010 i think it was when i processed the perfect health diet by uh the germany's and um then i made it a point and i re

01:58:14

processed every footnote it was like 600 of them i don't know how long i processed the book as like for months i processed the book and then i saw like i was very surprised because it was like a cornerstone book

01:58:25

for my uh for my work back then and the book itself the content itself is really really good for a nutrition book but how they cited the sources and how they

01:58:38

selected the sources was let's say very creative and very creative towards their goal of making their arguments it's very interpretive right yeah yeah yeah

01:58:50

so but the next thing is actually the opposite of analog so what i am doing uh the optimum uh the optimum in processing for me is when i'm actually

01:59:04

i'm not slowed down at all by the fact that i'm processing so i'm kind of um i don't know i think i'm fast for the ordinary people or ordinary person but i'm mediocre for

01:59:17

like a like a good typo so i think i average around 90 words per minute or something like that like 500 keystrokes and um sometimes it's it's often it's too slow for me

01:59:30

so i'm i'm i'm i'm not annoyed but i i feel that i need to type a lot faster to me to just make my thinking happen but

01:59:43

often i find myself in a place where i just have the feeling that i think but um and my fingers just moving along my thinking and then uh the notes and the links in my saddle

01:59:57

custom just it's like i i think of it like falling like a falling rain so i am the cloud and i'm just making my thing and making it rain and the nose just happened to fall where they fall

02:00:10

and the links fall where they're for and this is to me the benefit of of the digital if you are really in the zone of processing then you can then i at least i can just think and everything happens

02:00:24

like simulink for itself and sometimes of course it's it's bad because it can it can be a temptation to into bad thinking habits

02:00:37

but to me it's very similar or i my position is very similar to the position of the old greeks because when the first um i think it was not a critic to the

02:00:50

papuros or how is it in english peperos piperus i don't know what i mean papyrus papyrus okay yeah papaya it's what it was not directed towards the papers but

02:01:01

i think through the to the wax tables like tablets yeah yeah yeah and the critique was it destroys your mind like similar i remember hearing that it was everything it was uh

02:01:13

socrates said that yeah um let me show you something real quick oh you have one i actually after hearing that story yeah i i bought one this is a wax wax tablet you know just to see like oh

02:01:35

what would it be like you know writing a note on this you know like hi and how does it feel uh you know what it's like it's i just really like hi it's more like and then and then um you know this is like the

02:01:47

back of them have they it's like a racer so you're you're writing over it what it what it feels more like is like a white board you know because you you have to like you know erase what you've created so it's like it's like your your

02:01:59

ancient version of a whiteboard right because uh you know because i'm like reading about this i'm like how what like wax saba like i have no conception because a lot of the it's really interesting how the mediums right of different tools even like you know

02:02:13

typewriters you know the old typewriters i have an old typewriter that hemingway like the style that hemingway used to use and the way you type on a typewriter makes you a lot more terse in your writing and my theory is that because

02:02:26

hemingway hemingway never wrote by hand right he wrote by typewriting and i think it affected his style he's very like terse and very poignant style and you know if he if he wrote ten fingers or pekka hunt

02:02:40

i i think he actually wrote yeah like what you're saying this way because i've seen i've seen like pictures of him and he's staring down you know and you think differently when you're doing that you know like your thoughts

02:02:52

slow down and then with the typing that you're describing you're almost you're you know you're kind of it's almost like you've almost hooked it up to your brain like it's a lot faster like it's stream of stream of consciousness comes out a

02:03:05

lot faster with um but yeah yeah uh so you can uh yeah i know i know what your story you're talking about it was socrates was um

02:03:16

basically condemning i think plato or or something for using the wax tablets because and this happened later on with francis bacon too and you know they're accused

02:03:29

of letting their mind go on vacation and yeah yeah they because they uh you know what would offload and externalize their thoughts yeah but yeah i i i'm aware of that and you know

02:03:42

it's like yeah the criticism i get sometimes is like you know they see me as some some ludite some some uh some uh amish person that's saying like you know technology

02:03:55

is bad or digital is bad and they're like well why even right by hand why don't we write on stone tablets you know people say to me sometimes or wax tablets you know um

02:04:07

but yeah i think i think there's i think there's a trade-off in different mediums and stuff like that and and and uh for for yeah yeah i i don't want to yeah for me it's like i don't think you can go as down as many rabbit holes

02:04:20

as you can when you write by hand digital you can just hook it up to your mind and have it just kind of like what you're describing drop i don't know like a like a cloud dropping a ton of ideas like a stream a

02:04:33

stream yeah exactly and um the other um the the the thing is i what you um

02:04:45

said earlier that i uh disciplined myself to uh to adhere to uh thinking structures or something like that uh you said with the thinking pyramid um is that to me this is

02:04:59

um it's not necessary but i think it should be like like foundational education like this thinking techniques that you that you employ and i think it's

02:05:13

basic stuff it's basic stuff to learn how how to draw a model or to model something to or to to transform like a written text into a

02:05:25

picture it's about learning the memory palace even though i'm not a big fan of the memory palace because of the arbitrary connections that i think are not necessary if you make meaningful connections

02:05:39

and or in a more concise way i think understanding makes understanding makes training recall obsolete because what you understood is remembered

02:05:50

and um and understanding it's not like it's not like zero and one so it's not binary because you can underst it's like like on a scale the more associations you make the more applications you make and

02:06:03

the more lateral you think the more understand uh you understand the uh the thing well it's it's it's a function of time too i think it sounds to me you spend a lot of time

02:06:16

processing you know your notes and thinking through them and i think i think understanding and it's kind of like the more the the more you know you spend time with something the more you become it and more it

02:06:29

becomes you you know like you're injecting your own self into that note and it in turn resembles you and you're you know and and you're able

02:06:41

to because you understand it so well and so deeply because you spend so much time with it you don't have to uh rely on the memory castle

02:06:52

tricks you know and techniques yeah exactly and and also space repetitions so um space repetitions are to me um it's kind of on a scale the more or the

02:07:06

better you process something the less space repetitions you will need to uh to learn the facts that are needed to for the understanding and

02:07:19

yeah this would be my my um counter argument to the to the issue of uh not being slowed down enough by the digital i think if you you

02:07:30

need to or it's um you need to train your mind enough to do good thinking and then the typing or the processing or the digital processing can happen like

02:07:44

disciplined enough so uh knowledge can actually happen instead of you are just typing and regurgitating or processing very superficially and then having to be slowed down by the end

02:07:57

or not by the analog version but to have like any any break on your mind and of course it's it's relative so for some things i need of course i need to slow my down

02:08:09

myself down and then i use the drawing the many iterations and things like that um yeah but i think yeah that's you see

02:08:22

i think it's it's quite a pattern uh it's quite a simple pattern with the analog in digital so at least how we use it uh or how we argue so the analog like forces you to do some things and just

02:08:35

brings your uh brings your mind down and it's like um uh what what are the springs called uh with that you control horses uh yeah rain rains

02:08:48

ah the rains yes the digital the digital cell customers like loose rains yes and um it's basically yeah like that you you could uh uh that would be a good metaphor so

02:09:00

the analog version is like having like really control on the reins but of course the more control you have the slower you are and um if you just let the reins lose of course

02:09:12

the horses can go left and right and do whatever okay i don't know anything about horses other than uh like behavioral stuff and and from the past so please don't uh don't uh

02:09:25

give me hate mails uh um that horses are actually not or something like that um so you let let the the reigns lose and then what you need to do is being able to do

02:09:39

something like shouting commands or having something that the horses go in the direction so otherwise you will go like in any kind of any kind of direction or also

02:09:51

having bad habits so if you attempted to just copy and paste then of course it's the analog version just forces you to slow down because you have to write it and the digital version of a version

02:10:05

it even needs like a habit so it's not like the the digital version just force can force you to do anything uh about copying but it's like a habit or

02:10:17

rule that you set yourself um that's it's voluntarily formulated yeah it's a volunteer it's a voluntary rule you know with with with analog it's it's involuntary you you're you have to

02:10:30

involuntarily you know write in your own handwriting you know it's it's uh you don't have any other option you know you're choosing to not copy and paste

02:10:40

you know yeah yeah exactly and yeah i think yeah yeah the perhaps the main thing for or the main thing for the digital version is

02:10:56

you have to be very interested in the thing itself to me sometimes when i when i see people using the saddle carson i don't have like sometimes i have the feeling that many

02:11:08

people are just attracted to the power of the tool but they lack uh they lack a bit of of a good goal for actually for actually using it too

02:11:20

yes yes and um i think yeah it's it's quite similar in in uh when it goes to uh and goes to training so when there are a lot of very efficient

02:11:32

training programs so if you for example if you are not like really you know even if you are really uh really clumsy i can anybody can learn a handstand like like a really clumsy

02:11:45

person like in three to six months so like a really stable handheld handstand and not not wobbling not not stumbling around like just yes you're talking about like physical physical training right kind of like yeah crossfit or just

02:11:58

any physical training but why should you learn handstand so why why would you employ the most efficient most awesome program to learn handstand for what some people like to learn handstand yeah

02:12:12

but some people have a why some people don't they're just trying to you know copy what everyone else is doing essentially yeah but the thing is there are people or there's a subset of people that

02:12:23

see p uh see like do you know ido portal uh no i'm not not nothing do you watch mma uh yes um he was the the teacher of the move movement teacher of conor

02:12:36

mcgregor i think that's what uh made him back there or how uh nick diaz called the dog in a park with the touch butt [Laughter] um so uh uh it's kind of you

02:12:50

he's more he's a like a hyper generalist uh um mover so to say so he can like do handstand and gymnast and can do uh like he's very strong and can do capoeira and

02:13:03

so on so forth and what he uh what he emits is like this aura of he can do anything and being very in control and one of the most promotional videos of

02:13:15

himself was self-domination i think is the video or the name of the video and he's just doing uh like acrobatic stuff and people were very attracted to it but the problem was that they were

02:13:28

attracted to something within what he presented but didn't have their own agenda and what happened with with many people is they got sucked into

02:13:39

the world and of course it worked and he could teach them like very efficiently he's like a really really genius guy on the level of movement and a really awesome teacher but

02:13:52

the thing is if you are you can be a very distracted by something that might is very efficient and um this is um how would be a good

02:14:05

translation perhaps it could be translated to an um to the essentialist failure or non-essentialist failure so each person has like an essence

02:14:17

so what is like actually important in the life and to me for example there are only um like like a limited number of things so i have my writings

02:14:28

what i use the settle custom for so i have my life's work which will be like five to ten books or a series of five to ten books with arbitrary uh uh tax

02:14:39

around it i have my my woman i have um my dog okay my family like counts to to my women but that's all so for example that that is the reason

02:14:52

why i don't travel because i don't need to see like i don't need to see rome it doesn't help me it's it's not part of it's not part of your why it's not part of your purpose exactly you know like yeah we and what you're just describing

02:15:04

is like your your areas of life you know and i think how i describe my areas of life i call it um my soul uh mind body and heart you know and like you've just described your relationships and

02:15:17

you know like and and all that and um and yeah so so so i i think what you're saying is is the a lot of people get just get attracted to the tool itself without actually having a why for why they're

02:15:30

using it don't don't you worry i was i was coming back to the customer already so yeah it's like that settle custom being digital or analog is a really powerful tool

02:15:43

and if you use the thinking tools that could be embedded into the overall architecture it's even more power it's it's more powerful and i i tend to get a bit preachy when i

02:15:57

think about this aspect of the saddle custom method because to me it's similar to um um like seeing a homeless uh drug addicted uh person so

02:16:09

imagine a homeless drug addict person who's just happy with having his drugs and um having like a bridge so he doesn't get wet when it rains and it's kind of a gut feeling that he

02:16:22

shouldn't be happy with this because he can be so much more so the unfulfilled potential it's or i i think it's a it's a human

02:16:34

it's a human constant that we when we see unfulfilled potential we don't like it because somehow it's just hard white in the brain this is my assumption uh at least and when i see

02:16:47

what could be accomplished by using thinking tools within and settle custom architecture to me it's like when people say yeah but i really just want to have my telecast like a super awesome

02:17:00

storage storage mechanism then i see okay i see your point and i'm kind of uh like a libertarian person so do what you do have to do and i don't want intrude

02:17:12

but it's my gut feeling that makes me preachy then because i see okay you can do it like this but why why be satisfied with like five percent of the potential when you can like when you can have like 90 percent

02:17:25

yeah but the thing is what should be added to it is like having having actually something that you use it for and i think this is something that um

02:17:38

uh it's not like yeah it's it it hinders the learning process because people try or often try to learn the tool without applying without applying it applying it

02:17:50

to an actual pro project or creative output and creative work yeah and then then it's like it feels empty because uh the telecast method in itself is so simple

02:18:02

that uh if if you yeah you could teach it like in 10 minutes or something like that or some some intricacies so when when to uh when do the colon in the numbering system of the analog system or a little

02:18:15

bit explanation of why the timestamp instructional or something okay then it takes a little bit longer but it the magic only unfolds itself when you actually have your notes fully

02:18:28

developed or the knowledge fully developed it only unfolds itself when it's like it's when it says life so that settle custom so uh one could say

02:18:38

is basically your metabolism or the metabolism of your knowledge system it provides the muscles and the hormones and and all the stuff but the actual soul and your mind

02:18:51

needs to it needs to needs to inject it in it and this this happens by your passion your your goal your whatever but it

02:19:03

there needs to be something to it and if yeah if if you like it you can just basically it's like a frankenstein uh frankenstein monster it kind of moves like a zombie and and it works but

02:19:16

it's it's lifeless and you will not be satisfied especially when you see people who have have the complete thing and then it basically works i think this is uh also this is the appeal of uh

02:19:30

of you with the internet because people see that see the magic of a living settle custom but yeah

02:19:41

i i just asked the question so do you have people with this issue like just wanting to learn the system and like uh yeah i i yes yes so so what how i

02:19:53

kind of describe it is there's there's two states of mind and and we kind of we we can move in even in a given day we can like you know go through each of these states and i

02:20:06

call i call the state is you we have the growth state where we're we're viewing it viewing the zettocaustin uh and reading stuff for our own personal

02:20:18

growth and then there's the contribution state the contribution state is i'm reading material reading books and then creating you know i call main notes you know like creating main notes

02:20:31

right in order to create a project that contributes you know in order to create a book that contributes to society or like contributes and teaches someone something right and

02:20:44

um i think you know so one of the things that um that you touched upon and that that i've seen and especially i think it's like within um within like obsidian and

02:20:56

those like those um those videos youtube videos is and especially people this is why i'm like not a big fan of digital gardens so much is people see their notes as their creative output instead

02:21:09

of the means to create creative output you know your your notes your notes are not are not the are not the end they are the means you know is is uh my

02:21:22

another way of saying it and it's a paradox because it's not as simple as that because you know lumen started his second zettel costan um with a clear very clear goal in mind

02:21:35

right it was the the uh the theory of society you know a theory of everything afford society in a 30-year time span so for for 30 years and i think he actually

02:21:48

spent over 30 years doing it he saw his purpose and his reading material you know uh through the goal and the lens of contributing to his why his project his

02:22:02

creative output so the way in which he approached his settle costin was in the contribution mode it was not necessarily in the mode that oh i just i found this you know um

02:22:14

you know oh i i i think maps of meeting by jordan peterson is just a very interesting book that i want to you know learn and grow from personally no no like he would read that book in order to

02:22:26

select and extract material in order to con contribute to his overall why his overall end project which is a contribution goal and um i see that as well however

02:22:40

the the reason it's not as simple is like a year ago when i was like really building out uh you know my anti-net zetel costin i was uh you know in in in the state of mind i

02:22:53

was in um i at the time i was uh working on a project related to the field of marketing and copywriting and life philosophy and psychology i was actually going to be

02:23:06

using it to write a book related to that because you know my craft my background is in copywriting and it's also in cryptocurrency i created this massive cryptocurrency and this this huge movement and this um you know this big

02:23:19

big company and but the craft underlying that was i love the craft of you know copywriting and getting ideas that spread and inspire people out of the world so i was but i was originally kind

02:23:32

of confused and so i was kind of in the growth state of of uh okay well like i'm not really sure what i want to create you know and lumen was in the same kind of state of mind with his first settle costume you know his his first one was a

02:23:45

lot more uh reading books to grow and a lot more exploratory in nature right he had like 108 categories and it was like everything from like love to philosophy

02:23:57

to like just just everything and so he was more in the growth state but over time the goal i think that everyone should should be for everyone is to you know use it initially you might be

02:24:10

in the growth state of you're not really sure why you're using the tool but try to get to the contribution state try to use it for an active project or book you know and um

02:24:21

and when i made the switch and this was in like june or july of last year because i was like still in the mode of trying to create something for like a book related to copywriting marketing philosophy

02:24:33

psychology but then i made the switch because i'm like oh my god like this this the analog version of the settle costume is so powerful yet it's not explained or touched upon it anywhere like no one explains it aside from uh

02:24:46

sankey aren't in his book has like you know a paragraph explanation for it it's very very basic and um you know so i i i made the switch and decision i was like you know what like i i don't this this

02:24:59

market and i'm sure you know it's like the note-taking market is very like niche you know it's not like a finance or investment market or the cryptocurrency market where there's just a ton of money flowing into it but i'm like i just feel called and i made a

02:25:11

decision right then and there that i'm going to focus on writing and creating a book or some creative work that talks about the analog version and when i did that is when really the the uh you know

02:25:24

the zettle costume really took off for me and that's when i really saw the the true power is when i had a why behind it you know um and um and yeah i i'm i'm i'm dealing

02:25:36

that dealing with that and facing that with a lot of people that i i've been doing these one-on-one coaching sessions and i've been publishing it on my youtube channel and um this is one of the top things that i i talk about with people i'm like

02:25:50

okay i'm like before we get into all the technicalities of you know how to set up your own anti-net settle costing right which is you know you need a bibliography section you need your index section and you need

02:26:03

the main box section right they get they most people have no problem at all creating uh bibliography notes notes from reading you know they have where they run into the issue is is in transitioning to

02:26:16

creating main notes and then numbering them they all they all have a big fear that they don't want to do it wrong you know and it prevents them from doing anything but even above that i'm like wait let's take a step back

02:26:28

what is your goal like what are you and a lot of people i don't i don't fault them for not having a project uh you know in the contribution state that they actively want to work on because i

02:26:42

didn't in the very beginning you know and i don't think blumen necessarily did either i think he he might have but for him it was like his passion is fun but i think people get stuck in only in

02:26:54

the growth state and their notes suffer as a result you know they just have like a bunch of unprocessed stuff you know that they're like yeah but yeah i i s that that is that is

02:27:06

that is what i observe is yeah so yeah yeah it kind of mirrors what i'm uh telling a lot uh so that

02:27:22

um if you try if if if you use it or try to learn it the cell custom method at least pretend that you have a project it's way easier it's way easier to process anything if you have like even a

02:27:36

fake project so and and some i uh um to me because i'm digital it's like uh i think i i'm i'm officially writing like

02:27:48

70 books now like at the same time um because it's basically just um when i uh when i create a note i ask myself okay where can i use it and then have these

02:28:00

connections make it uh these connections are filtered through the relevance to the project and these connections actually make up a lot of other notes so um

02:28:12

i process the connections then itself and this is like when i get started in this free not free association but this this is yes it's not even stream of

02:28:24

consciousness i think i'm i'm i'm having a hard time to have this work because it's like i i it's more to me mentally it's like i have a bubble in the air and then i just attach other bubbles

02:28:37

like like an organic growth thing yeah it's always it's it's involved yeah yeah it's it's it and it's very similar to the um uh to it's very similar how i view what jordan peterson

02:28:50

explained what he does and very similar also to the uh to the uh um uh numbering system of the analog uh yeah because you're just evolving ideas behind it you know yeah

02:29:03

essentially it's basically it's there it's like an organic growth i think the metaphor of the tree is quite fitting there because the tree also grows

02:29:15

or is guided by the espressos so you have the gravity so the tree always grows uh in the opposite uh uh direction of the gravity but then you have the wind and the sun and um the deer that

02:29:29

that gnaws on the on the borg and something like that and this gives this tree that it's actual structure and quite similar is the analog system so all the stressors you have like your difficulties at the moment perhaps you

02:29:42

have uh like uh distracting thoughts at the moment and so you decide to branch in this way and not in that way and so on so forth and this gives your uh your analog system

02:29:53

its actual outline and um this gives my like so to say my organic structure that i'm thinking about its outline but um yeah i think

02:30:07

yeah it might be it might be me personally because i'm i think i'm just a very enthusia enthusiastic person uh with or have enthusiastic temperament so when i do something and i go into my title cast

02:30:20

it's like i just need to like 20 20 minutes and then i'm hyped at something so i'm when i'm thinking about those perhaps i would rename if if i would

02:30:33

process those two uh state of minds i would perhaps rename it to orientation and uh and seeking or something like that so the growth state of mind would be orientation so you are

02:30:46

searching for a direction and so of course you have more in exploration mode and you can see something here and see something there places some yeah you're trying to orient yourself you know you've been dumped in the middle of a jungle exactly to orient

02:31:00

yourself from where to go to me it's like i i'm i'm yeah it might be my temperament because when i think about that how i process

02:31:13

anything basically it's like uh especially the two books of uh by carl newport for example uh the first one deep work and the second one be so good they can't ignore you yeah um

02:31:25

it's it was basically and i think you know both books are not very uh what would be or comprehensive so for example deep work could be compressed into a lot shorter

02:31:36

book yeah but i think uh it wouldn't serve the purpose because it's the act it's nice to read about deep work to feel inspired and um and uh actually put yeah perhaps it's

02:31:49

also the time factor put time into thinking and reading about the the thing deep work what he means and then have more impact by the by by the reading process

02:32:01

but when i processed it it um there wasn't any issue of the or i i personally didn't have any issues processing it uh uh and falling into the growth mode so to say like

02:32:15

don't know what to do it's almost like no that's the thing that needs to be discovered and ordered and something like that and then i'm just in the matter and i don't have the issues

02:32:28

and yeah perhaps perhaps this might be a hindrance or an obstacle to learning the telecast method if you don't have this

02:32:39

uh temperamental inclination because if you don't have this uh like being being hyper enthusiastic of everything or most of the thing you learn then you

02:32:53

yeah you don't have uh or perhaps in a more positive way if you are too balanced in your mind and don't obsess over things like like in an instant i think you have more hesitation

02:33:07

and then you are actually a bit slower uh uh going like like going full in into the telecaster method yeah yeah i see what you're you're saying

02:33:20

it's like some people are just like you know they're they're just take brief notes and it's almost like it's almost like that the notes that they took are just like for a homework assignment that they're

02:33:31

just not really passionate about you know so yeah how we at yeah i mean did you get through all of your uh all of your points on the uh

02:33:49

yeah i think yeah the analog the yeah i think i uh uh the last thing what i want to see more of the analog version there was only this point drawing because i think the analog version and the digital version is not so different

02:34:03

from each other it's the medium just uh creates different not it's great it doesn't create different different uh habits but it's

02:34:15

to me it's a scale so it's it's um you have a scale where you are basically totally free so i imagine for example uh the next step after digital would be something like uh how is it called is it

02:34:28

is it's not starling but neuralink or oh yeah yes yeah next to neurin and then perhaps if uh uh if i am alive when neural link really happens then perhaps i just plug

02:34:42

myself in and then just levitate in the space and have the notes and everything there or i would go uh in the resistance mode and think no no link is like the

02:34:54

great new sin and it destroys your mind and go into the into aggravation so socrates did with the wax tablets um but it would be more on the on the

02:35:07

extreme scale of having no rains and the analog version would be on the other extreme or do you can you remember can you uh

02:35:19

think of an more extreme version of the analog system yeah like uh you know like wax wax tablets or something like that um uh yeah but no wouldn't you know just bigger than like having having like 1

02:35:35

000 wax tablets would be like a room full of wax tablets yeah um yeah like like if we kept tracing it back like i think i think the first site like okay so so if we if we wanted to

02:35:47

like create the scale right now right like if there's like neural link over here uh maybe there's virtual reality over here then there's like typing by keyboard over here

02:35:58

uh you know my keyboard and then there's like typewriters over here right and then there would be writing by hand over here and then there would be um

02:36:09

uh like like maybe like uh writing on papyrus or writing on um biblical i think biblical was yeah writing on papyrus and then like scrolls and then wax tablets and then

02:36:23

stone tablets and then like it traces back to uh i would i think like cave paintings like putting your glitters on on the on the wall you know like yeah has like a really complex

02:36:36

where you actually have this this path and then you have to like dig your own tunnels yeah i yeah so i definitely think there's this this interesting yeah this interesting spectrum um i think i think

02:36:48

different people have different you know some people might like you know gain value of out of creating a thinking system out of a typewriter you know in like like a hemingway hemingway style um

02:36:59

i uh for for me the one thing i i really you know it's it's not just it's not only that that the analog forces me to um what it's called slow down my mind to be and be more disciplined because you know

02:37:13

like and maybe it might be a treat too like i i have adhd and i've talked about other people i was just talking up to another guy last night who has adhd and ever since writing by hand it like calmed down his mind so that he didn't

02:37:26

have this hyperactive mind he can actually focus and just retain but um like those are all we get benefits as well but the the one main thing that i think i i really like and then i'm i wonder if what neural link

02:37:38

would be like but like like in in in my notes you know it's like i see my own handwriting and for me i see my own personality my own soul and it this acts

02:37:50

as a prompt or a cue for something to take place in my mind you know that is uh almost incommunicable right and so if we move towards and that's like a magic

02:38:02

that i think that that i really like and you know that that i see you know if we move to neurolink right is um like all of these i don't you know you know

02:38:14

i don't know i don't know if we'll be able to like capture our own consciousness and our own thoughts and that own internal experience and our own internal ghosts and our own internal voice

02:38:26

um you know um perfectly in that medium i don't know like i i because because when you're talking when you're describing to me about how

02:38:38

you're typing so rapidly right um uh when you go back and review those notes you know i don't it's it's i don't i i would guess i don't think that the the actual text

02:38:51

that you created is as it's not um lossless you know of it doesn't perfectly represent that internal experience of your thoughts that happened in your own mind you know

02:39:05

like there was some there's some lossless um contextualities and and feelings and properties like when that when you experience that thought and those sensations in your own mind when you're writing and creating those

02:39:18

connections i'm sure it was a lot more exciting and more beautiful when it was in your mind and you saw the truth when you write it and put it on digital and paper it's just like wait like this was

02:39:29

way more beautiful and amazing when it was in my mind you know yeah um uh you know and so i'm not really i'm not sure what i'm really really really saying but i i i think

02:39:42

i don't think uh who knows with like neurolink we're kind of just speculating what like with with neurolink what is that actually going to be like if like the capturing your own knowledge and stuff is like i

02:39:54

doubt it will i doubt it will retain that magic you know of what goes on in our mind you know i think i think at least for me the analog form it um these

02:40:07

these act as cues to reignite the magic that goes on in our mind yeah and um yeah yeah to me it's to me this uh this happens through drawing most of the time

02:40:21

yes because i think drawings like perhaps drawings could be in uh even in a further in a further slowish category of writing

02:40:37

because if you think of a word like a as a symbol then you would put into a drawing like a lot of time like in this in a single picture a lot of times so there goes a

02:40:48

lot of work in it just to produce like a like is one single picture and i'm i i thought about it in is in association for is there actually a use

02:41:00

case for really doing something like similar to going into a cave and make a painting and then i thought yeah something like that so for you can have an actual model

02:41:14

built so for example if you think um uh think about flow you can picture it like a like a uh like a channel i think even uh chicks and mihai called it a float channel

02:41:26

and what what would happen if you actually uh if you actually built a channel like perhaps from clay or something like that and just have all this um or

02:41:38

in my case i extended the model so i have like different zones because in my own uh i used it to understand what i did in my training because i trained like

02:41:50

um i used um like a combination of a ketogenic diet with intermittent fasting um and training with breathe restriction so at a gas max on

02:42:04

with restricted air breathing and did like all out intervals on like machines and circuits and basic crossfit uh stuff and i it was not it was not optimal from

02:42:18

a training perspective but it was like more of a kind of meditation for me and the flow model um to me was too restrictive for example so the flow

02:42:30

model basically is binary so you have not flow and not flow and the the assumption int built into the model is that the magic happens in flow

02:42:43

and this was challenged by um uh unders eric anderson or eric eric anderson or anders ericsson i don't know

02:42:56

yes yes i know you're talking about yeah and anderson erickson ander anders ericsson or something yeah or eric erickson yeah okay but we know uh which guy it was yeah and he

02:43:07

said um in i think it was in peak performance right in the beginning he said flow is even detrimental to to actually the deliberate practice because flow um is something where you feel good and

02:43:22

with deliberate practice you need to go beyond stretching so you stretch yourself and it needs to suck yeah and uh this led me to to ask the questions uh because there's a similar model you know the

02:43:34

concentric circle of um comfort zone learning zone and panic zone and my goal or my my uh yeah what i practiced was

02:43:47

how or is it possible to learn something in the panic zone so i trained like in intensities where i i i tasted blood and uh i even had the feeling of my pants because of the intensity and

02:44:01

something like that and even there was one incidence where i just fell unconscious from the exercise machine like and then i was awake this is like uh this is like tim tim

02:44:12

ferriss experiments or something you know yes german style or you actually actually go but so advanced yeah yeah it was like from yeah from

02:44:25

a training voice it wasn't optimum of uh optimal of course but um um because of that i needed to like do something with the flow model

02:44:36

and um so i created uh okay now i'm me underring i but i create different zones like uh is there something like uh adaptive chaos opposed to like the full order

02:44:49

uh that he's presented or associating with the flow and um i'm i'm asking myself what would happen if i create like a real model like something out of wood or something out of clay

02:45:03

um for my flow channel would i be able to understand something that i'm not able to understand now because i only drew it on paper this would be the question so it's it's

02:45:14

kind of a it's kind of a leap of example but i think there is something to that you know maybe maybe if certain things uh model and represent certain things it's like maybe yeah maybe you would you would approach it differently by like

02:45:27

you know okay like moving this part this way connecting it this way using physical so that that's the thing that's the one of the main things touch upon is i think i think especially today we are way too obsessed

02:45:40

people are way too uh they're betting way too much money and way too much resources in capital is bet on metaphysical reality instead of people are throwing physical reality under the bus

02:45:53

right it's in physical reality is the most uh i think developed and evolved truth obviously metaphysical reality exists as well and by by this i mean you

02:46:06

know metaphysical reality or things that are above meta mean meaning the greek word meta meaning above above the physical realm right like gravity is above the physical realm we cannot see

02:46:18

it you know like but it exists and it is true you know math is above the physical realm but as far as we know you know you know uh uh it is true at least you know like if humans didn't exist math i think

02:46:31

would still continue to exist right um you know like so it's like the physical realm in like meta in facebook right and the metaverse

02:46:44

everyone's getting obsessed with the metaverse and it's like people are throwing away the the power of physical thinking tools and i think that there is something there and i also think that

02:46:58

that i think that the the leaps and future in intellectual evolution will not just come by way of ones and zeros and binary code in the meta metaphysical reality but will come by

02:47:10

way of uh it will involve the physic physical reality as well and um yeah it real quick did you did you use so you know the whole the whole the whole flow model that you created for training you

02:47:24

were saying you you drew it out and and drew it out by hand like you created a diagram of this model yeah okay yeah and and you were writing it to obstacles and you're thinking how can i you know

02:47:36

maybe get around to them by thinking about it differently by creating physical models of it but i have a real the thing is i okay i have like a um like a thought experiment that would uh that's a bit

02:47:49

it's a bit uh absurd but i think it highlights the issue of um [Music] the need to go away from the abstract

02:48:02

and the digital um because i thought how to raise like really really good chickens like uh or not breed good chickens

02:48:14

and my thought experiment was you have one population that you optimize for productivity so either like egg laying product productivity or meat or whatever

02:48:27

but then what you create is like a population that are very dependent on on um on a protective environment so you you

02:48:39

make them weak against infections and uh surely there there will be uh a lot of a lot of hands that couldn't walk and this already

02:48:51

happens so if you have those hyper productive uh factories yeah they they are insanely dysfunctional and you need a lot of or you need anti antibiotics

02:49:04

to keep them alive and so on so forth but what if you optimize or you have one branch of chickens that you optimize for this but then you have another branch of chickens that you just let

02:49:19

select for the same for the same traits just in a wood like a fenced wood so they get all the benefits of being uh exposed to nature with all the pathogens and

02:49:32

the predators and so on so forth and then you just cross them so you won't get this uh this hyper hyper productive but very fragile chicken and you won't get the

02:49:44

the very lean and uh very just resilient optimized uh hands but perhaps a healthy middle ground and it's kind of it's it's not not very serious this uh this thought experiment to like

02:49:58

actually produce like a super chicken or something like that but i try to think about how to combine like a very artificial environment and a very natural environment and i think in the custom world

02:50:11

something similar could happen so the very artificial environment is like a hyper digital digital title custom and of course it's not like it's not pure abstract because you have words and

02:50:25

you have like drawings and can make diagrams even digital diagrams and then you have the the analog things that are way more in the real world and then of

02:50:37

course you have something like way in the real world like uh actually doing stuff and we all know it when you do something it's like your all the or it's like quite similar that

02:50:48

mike tyson said everybody has a plan until he gets punched in the mouth yes and it's like you need this punch in the mouth to actually to actually learn the thing whatever you are doing and um

02:51:01

okay i circle back i think the issue with learning that settle custom at one of the issues is that um that it is a temptation to uh avoid the punch in the mouth yes yes

02:51:14

yes absolutely it's it's it's it's uh it's a temptation to avoid the pain of creating you know something and um i think i think i think the benefit

02:51:27

of at least of what i've seen is it uh instead of going into a fight you know for 15 rounds right in in in one night

02:51:41

what it instead does at least for me especially with the process of um of the the analog settle costing is it breaks it apart so i have to do i do

02:51:52

these thinking and processing one note card at a time you know stretched out over eight months right so by the time i get it i get this like it's it's uh it's it's like it's it's basically

02:52:05

instead of instead of going into instead of training you know and then going into um and then writing a paper or manuscript you know um and going into a ring one night for

02:52:19

15 rounds you know of like five minutes five minute rounds each or something instead of that it's spending instead of eight months training it's it's instead of instead of that

02:52:32

it's it's spending about you know one minute a day for eight months going into a fight so and then at the end of the eight months

02:52:44

there is no 15 round fight all you all you do is you combine all of the you know that eight months of having you know a fight every single day and then you put that on a desk and then

02:52:59

you write it out and it's a lot easier it's not a fight at that point you've already you're basically piecing it together but you're not having to edit it you're like putting it in that so it's like i think that's the

02:53:11

appeal and that's what newman's appeal was is he didn't do a ton of reading and research and then sit down at the manuscript and try to piece it all together it was all kind of already pieced together and

02:53:25

linked together because the analog settle costing is one big chain linked thing because every note you know it's like ever it's like every every note is linked to the next note

02:53:37

you know um so that's that's that's but yeah yeah that's i think i think it makes basically yeah everyone is avoiding the the getting punched in the mouth you know and uh with uh

02:53:49

you have to have the discipline you know in digital to go through the to force yourself to go through the punch in the mouth which is like the elaborate rehearsal the elaborate processing in in the analog world

02:54:03

there's you know the the whole thing is one micro series of being punched in the mouth you know of actually having to write by hand and elaborate in your own words so

02:54:15

there's you know i i think maybe in the digital world people can um you know they can they can uh they can avoid the getting punched in the mouth

02:54:28

factor you know by by not fully processing by by maybe just writing writing down even if they don't copy and paste people can just like write down a very basic definition of something you know in

02:54:40

their own words but they still haven't fully processed it you know um they haven't elaborated on it you know and um yeah i'm asking myself if uh what

02:54:54

i don't think i i will have the time but i'm asking myself what would happen if i write the book now or have a one project title custom an analog version of the cell custom and just using my digital telecaster to

02:55:07

inform my analog nodes at most because i thought about i'm now i'm at this beta testing phase for the second edition of the cell casting book and what i

02:55:20

um what i did wrong was that i like had had the tendency to theory dump or have a theory dump on my reader

02:55:32

so because of because of my experience that um the the bottleneck for many people is like the understanding of the nature itself so

02:55:44

um many people when when they create notes uh they don't or for example if you don't know what an argument really is for example or for for the listeners in

02:55:56

arguments i have a really simple uh working definition arguments is a structure that tr that uh transports the truth of one set of uh statements to another statement

02:56:09

that's basically it and of course there are different kind of arguments different forms but it's basically a truth transport mechanism an argument so you have three that you have three items of an argument

02:56:22

you have the premises you have the mechanism and you have the conclusion and if you don't have it down you basically can't process an argument

02:56:34

what is the exact what is the mechanism part can you uh it's a logical structure okay so for example the premise the premise is like your your basically like your

02:56:47

statements right and um yeah what what you are basing your your truth on and then the mechanism is is what you're saying is the structure or how you are presenting in what order the logical form of the argument okay so it very

02:57:01

simple example is the modus ponens so if i say um all humans are all humans are mortal luminous mortal so uh human is mortal it's a very it's it's

02:57:13

like a very simple argument you have the the two uh the first two statements that i assume to be true so you can argue against that so you could say no not all humans are mortal because um

02:57:26

uh there is x and y and he never died or you can say human lumen is not human so you can uh you can have that yeah uh

02:57:39

for example but the logical form is a equals b b equals c uh no no no oh i i don't get the letters wait um a oh i don't know how it's in english

02:57:53

it's like a a and arrow to b yeah so it's yeah it's a uh it's like associated of uh it's an associative in programming it's like uh an associative assignment it's they call

02:58:06

it a a logical assignment or something points to something else a a a to b b to c okay but i think i think the listeners uh uh understand what we mean so

02:58:19

it's it's a arrow b a so uh uh no it's b so a so it's it's need to be uh restaurant okay i think i messed that up because i'm uh i'm growing a bit

02:58:30

tight now yeah yeah yeah yeah uh yeah i'm getting to the point so what i did wrong in the manuscript was i had a lot of background information so i have like

02:58:44

one tiny practical conclusion but like a like a several pages long uh explanation and me and my underring to the conclusion and the critique i got quite regularly

02:58:57

from the beta readers was why do i need to know it so in in one way on others all of the the theoretical knowledge basically yeah yeah and my my

02:59:09

gut instinct was yeah you need to know it because and then i i i got not into i wasn't defensive because i'm uh i i i didn't felt attacked but it was like i

02:59:22

went into more like an argument of mode and tried to convince the beta readers why they need to know it and the thing is i i i basically like melted down the

02:59:36

manuscript from i think one chapter i i remember it was the the reading chapter was from thirteen thousand thirteen thousand words to five thousand words so it's like it's it melted down a lot

02:59:48

because i accepted uh um my issue was like with this theory dumping and a lot of things were actually really not not that important to the customer

03:00:01

method and was able to like con convey my points but i'm asking myself perhaps it's it could be a temptation of the digital because it's way easier to

03:00:13

produce yes and way easier to just ditch a stitch stitch the nose together and see the patterns and then it's no hassle to actually translate it into the

03:00:26

written document and with analogue you [Music] i think it should be the same process because it's it's a it's um a myth

03:00:40

that you just have to copy and paste your notes into the manuscript and then the manuscript is written i think yes a recent experience report on on the block then this is kind of not happening and

03:00:52

yes yes yeah um i yeah so it's it's so interesting i i i don't think that that is completely and utterly solved with

03:01:05

analog because you know i'm going through the process of writing my book right now and that's one of the things i was because mine is like it's it's big it's a big

03:01:16

book because i it's for some reason i think the the theory is a lot of it's really fun to write about and it's really it's it's really important as well but um you know like so i have so much

03:01:29

content on the theory of you know communicating as a communication partner and communicating with your second mind and the theory of surprises and accidents and and all of all of that stuff and because

03:01:44

when i write when i write like when if i let's say i rewrite this note you know i'm i'm starting with this as a a q but when i'm writing it in digital i'm elaborating it on it so this gets this

03:01:57

gets really long like this will be like like a page or two this could be right here because because i'm explaining it so so it did digital you know like um

03:02:11

analog is also very uh what is it called uh it turns you into spitting out a ton of theory and text and like because lumen for instance

03:02:24

right like his his his notes you know spit out a ton of text and it turns you into this almost like publication machine and you're able to like you know create a ton of text

03:02:35

as well so i don't think i i you know i i haven't gone through the beta reader process yet i'm finishing up my first draft here and that'll be done like in a month i have gotten a lot of feedback from

03:02:48

a first round of feedback from like a copy editor and i put like my work out there and stuff like that but i have a lot of pictures in my book right and so so it's a little bit longer because a lot of these pages are like

03:03:00

have pictures in it but i'm looking at the my working manuscript now has 167 000 words in it which is a lot and then and then when i put it in like

03:03:12

you know these pdf it's like 670 pages and i'm like god like who is going to read an entire book on like note taking like 670 pages of this thing

03:03:25

and i'm like like like um you know because i'm going through the process of of of creating a book about these settle costs and using my settle costs and and um i i think though that

03:03:39

what what you've created is actually a good thing because this is what everyone goes through is and this is why i'm not really um worried about creating too much theory or theory dumping is that the

03:03:51

goal is to get the first draft to be as big as possible or big and so that you can then cut it down during the editing however it's like there's a part of me that that like i want this book to be like a bible

03:04:04

maybe yours is kind of like a bible with with where you're just theory dumping everything and how i'm viewing it is yeah maybe i'll do a second book or a second version of the book or something calling

03:04:16

it like anti-net secrets or settle constant secrets or something like that and have that be you know maybe a hundred page guide or you know something shorter um because um

03:04:27

but yeah i i don't i don't think um you know like maybe and also here's my plan too i'm just sharing kind of like you know how i interpret this is

03:04:40

i'm fine if if i create like a 600 page book where i brain dump everything that i know and even my theory and no one wants to read it because the second phase that i'll create is

03:04:53

i'll create a either a simpler book or a simple course you know like a six week course i i promise i was talking to a guy last night and um he's like please don't make it a three thousand dollar course don't be one of those people you know and i'm

03:05:05

like i don't want to be though i don't want to do that like i'm not in into that and and whole thing it's like i don't want it to be you know a three thousand dollar course but i think that that maybe maybe the beta readers some of

03:05:18

them just are the type of audience that just want a course a simple course you know to teach them and that's fine and uh you know maybe maybe they're but uh maybe they're just not the right

03:05:30

audience for the book you know for the book it's like maybe you should ignore that their their opinion you know as well so um not not ignore all if if if you have 15 beta readers and

03:05:43

or 20 and all 20 of them are telling the same thing then obviously it's probably a good signal but um yeah that's uh i don't know i'm about to i'm about to enter your your world and going to the

03:05:57

editing phase and that's where i think the real pain starts you know because you're like oh yeah i was just reading my my one of my chapters like i got back from my copy editor uh it was like 80 pages and i'm

03:06:08

going through it i'm like oh like you know i'm going through the voice of my head of like being like holy crap this is uh is this even good you know like i'm reading it i'm like oh you know and then um and then you know you

03:06:20

have like the ups and downs during this process yeah this might be i'm i'm i'm tricking myself a little bit because i um because of my dog my dog is like really really crazy

03:06:34

and um i was like tricked into adopting her so the the foster dad like told me like nothing about her issues and so she for the first two months she she basically

03:06:46

destroyed my flat and she uh like it's it was like i aside from true biting i had every issue with her uh that you can count like every issue like polytraining

03:07:00

and stuff i i did every when people when i talk to people and through other dog people they ask me ah did you try this or did you try that and i always said i didn't don't i didn't

03:07:11

only try this or that there was like months at a time where i applied every trick in the box simultaneously and this was the only way how that i could like

03:07:24

train her to be like kind of a kind of a dog that that can happen but in the process of course i used my cell custom to like guide my process so i have my

03:07:37

uh even my diary uh for her in my settle casting and then connecting my subjective perceptions to the most systematic research i did and so on so forth and my

03:07:48

trick was uh because i have no i've no uh how would you call no not no skin in the game but i have no agenda with a book no nothing so this book i will write exactly how i want to

03:08:03

write a book with all the theory dump and all the meandering and useless and uh information or in my opinion use full information and so on and so forth yeah to get the urge out and then to have the

03:08:16

settle cast method uh um the zelda cast method book to be like at the um i think the the the the best book how to uh that could describe the silicas

03:08:31

method would be write useful books by uh fitzpatrick i think is sort of or fit no no no it's fitzpatrick and it's a very short book and um very

03:08:45

precise and it's about uh uh yeah the the it's about two kinds of books and that you should write the the the one kind of book so the one would be

03:08:57

um um feel good books so books that inspire you or something like that and then there are problem solvers and the telecast method this book i'm writing is a problem

03:09:10

solver so it's a practical book with basically no love so to say so i don't i don't it's not a love letter to the cell custom method but more uh like a heartless

03:09:23

very uh very direct uh uh instruction on how to use the title custom so i think this might be my my one of my bigger obstacles to cut my love for the

03:09:36

telecast or not my love but my my uh conviction to the to the productivity and uh to the potential that lies within the settlecast method

03:09:48

um that i i think i need to cut out to make the book more uh concise all right yeah so so this this book you're working on right now is the uh you know the settle cost

03:10:01

of method one this is the the it's the basics problem solving one the the very skeleton bear bare bones one and that's that's the one that you're still getting feedback from your beta

03:10:13

readers on there's too much theory or oh no no no this this is the much improved so i i i didn't have as many i think i like 70 to 80 000 words

03:10:24

so it was already much much smaller so i'm wondering what what will be the 167 000 uh what others 160 000 words

03:10:36

uh in in your book so it it's uh yeah but i'm i think i have i have uh i think i have a good hypothesis or i think i have like a like a good uh uh uh

03:10:49

was it what is it called imagination um uh on because i think i if i would just write it from my perspective with no um uh or in

03:11:02

just how i would like it i i could write of uh then uh as much because then all the all the uh additional background information could be um could be included

03:11:15

yeah yeah what what mine like the 167 000 words it's like um maybe i can pull some of it up um i've i like so my it's like i have a

03:11:29

uh introduction the journey that led me to publish you know a book and talks about my journey of starting with analog and going to obsidian and then i have like the who and why you know of and and that i have the

03:11:41

current landscape of the settle costume you know like the current current landscape i have uh a section nicholas lubin the man you know and talking about how his character and personality yeah i have nothing off that nothing yes

03:11:55

yes yeah so so my mine is mine is kind of yeah it goes on a lot of that um i have a chapter overview of what is an internet that's essentially uh you know kind of like the the blog post that we

03:12:07

put together you know and then i have a chapter individually for analog numeric alpha tree structure index and then i have one on network and then i have a practical hitchhiker's guide to the anti-net which

03:12:20

is a big how-to guide and then i have a section called knowledge development and a chapter on knowledge development which i broke into four phases like selection selecting sources of

03:12:32

information then extraction extracting you know how to extract material and then i have creation um how to go about creating notes and knowledge in the different types and

03:12:44

then i have installation like how to install it in different branches and then i have a section of the myths of the xettlecostin um i have uh the human memory of how human memory the science works and how

03:12:57

it's interrelated then i have the uh section on mindset you know like how you should go about approaching it and how i've like deep kind of debunked the beliefs that sankey ahrens is instilled that everything's supposed to be easy

03:13:10

and it makes writing seamless it's like no it's like lumen was a like a absolute workaholic you know like you know and it's not that he was a workaholic it's his vocation was his vacation

03:13:22

he read he would go to you know come home every every night uh you know when he was like 25 working in the legal working at the the i think it was called like the lunenburg higher administrative

03:13:33

court you know like as soon as the clock struck five you know he would be at home reading philosophy and uh habermas and uh not not habermas um

03:13:47

husserl i believe and yeah yeah he was big into that and so that then i have like a section on communication with your second mind and then i get into like you know a lot of

03:14:00

the yeah you know like like literally my chapter on analog is like 20 000 words you know talking about writing by hand because i've also grabbed you know and like how it's built itself is like a lot of these

03:14:13

sections were beefed out and built out from reading the book called um forgetting machines and knowledge management and relating to how stuff like that so yeah that's that's kind of how it

03:14:25

how it is um that's the content you are it's it's funny because to me it sounds like the the thing lumen did so it's very luminous so it's uh he

03:14:39

he called his uh theory of society super theory or as super theory because it intakes everything even itself so um what you are basic to me it's it's

03:14:51

it's it's uh it it looks like that you are writing the book um basically or you are writing a book about everything through the lens of that cell custom

03:15:04

so um this was for example my uh what some beta readers said to me was that there was too much on arbitrary things about reading and

03:15:18

too much things about research and one uh even uh got to the point and said to him that settle custom method does not entail anything about reading or research yeah

03:15:30

see i i i'm the opposite you know like i i think i think it is i mean i'm i'm open-minded you know to it being for other things in like maybe

03:15:43

life hackers and quantitative life people that just want to like record everything and all their information and you know like i think a lot of people almost view it as like a an alternative or another version of air table you know

03:15:57

where just like you record a bunch of data and i am i'm i'm of the opinion that it is primarily a tool for i think creators and for the most part the creators really encompasses

03:16:09

people like lumen who were writers and readers and you know the goal was for them to be able to you know it's like basically you use your bib card right to read and abstract

03:16:22

or read and extract uh knowledge or information at that point from your readings and then convert that into uh into material main notes

03:16:35

that you then use for your writing and like i think that that's you know really the the primary point of what a of what a you know lumenian

03:16:48

uh uh zettocaustin is and that's that's its primary proof is that lumen proved that it is useful for that you know and i think a lot of

03:16:59

i i uh yeah so that's yeah i'm sorry i can not continue going no i i think my my beta reader has a point because when you think about the cell custom like

03:17:12

classically it's the thing so reading and research is kind of in the in the periphery and of course it it belongs into your personal workflow

03:17:23

and i think his critique was partly in part motivated by his disagreeing disagreement with my recommendations on reading and how to

03:17:38

use highlights and something like and on and stuff like that and he um because he disagreed to that he had difficulties or i i say in part he had a point but in part it was motivated by

03:17:51

um yeah his not not willing to change his reading habits and his way of highlighting and so um it was like uh he

03:18:03

i think he his uh his not goal but but direction of thought was um uh um creating like like modelizing uh the whole thing and see okay that settle custom is basically just the bunch of

03:18:19

notes that are organized in a way that's super cool that's and how you do it is the cell custom method and i think what we are thinking similarly here is know

03:18:31

that saddle custom itself is the structure but the method entails the whole the whole value creation from research to whatever product you are producing being a

03:18:43

piece of writing or a habit change or like an insight or whatever so the selection and the means in which you extract yeah uh knowledge you're saying is

03:18:55

falls under the umbrella of the the settle costume method and he was saying no it it doesn't fall under the umbrella like i think he's he's saying i can choose to select uh extract

03:19:07

uh information in in in the manner that i and that i want to and and for him it was highlighting he was very committed to highlighting um yeah i think it was one main point and i i see that i see the point i see

03:19:19

the point when you are thinking about the subtle custom you are thinking more about yeah the collection of nodes yeah the the the or the the storage you see it yeah yeah yeah yeah the the problem

03:19:32

with that is that like you know that's not how lumens saw it you know like like lumen lumen had i think 5 000 books in his own personal library connection you know he read 15 000 titles you know in

03:19:45

his second settle costume there's 15 000 titles and he never ever highlighted you know like he never even in his personal collection he always wrote on the bib card you know the bibliography card uh he

03:19:58

like that's johannes schmidt said like you know you never found like writings in the actual books or things and i think that that is important like so you're reading uh the fiona mcpherson book right the um

03:20:13

effective effective note-taking yeah and she she talks about that she talks about how um i think you know she she goes through it but she says highlighting isn't necessarily the best thing you know the one benefit of

03:20:24

highlighting is that it at least keeps you engaged you know like it directs your attention it directs your attention yeah yeah and then but then there's you know other things that

03:20:36

say like oh hi like other research has shown that like highlighting it can even uh distract your attention and make you and kind of like it once again it's kind of like the it's like the

03:20:48

once again get another vehicle for avoiding the punch in the face you know um and uh so yeah i would i would in my in my book i talk about that i i'm

03:21:00

like i take the stance that you do not highlight at all by any means you know i i i do yeah it it like i because i see the extraction method as you can either go from

03:21:13

you can go from book to main card you know or you can do book to bib card you know and then main card or they or you can do like book to margin book to margin notes you know people and i don't

03:21:26

i don't recommend even booked margin like i've tried a lot of different workflows with book to margin and using marginalia they call it and then there's like you know book to highlighting and that's like i i

03:21:38

think the the most the late the laziest of them all and um you know it's funny is because you'll find like guys you know if you've read that the digital

03:21:49

settle costume book he's like he he he advises using highlights and kindle highlights and then he's like oh then after you highlight your kindle highlights then they then export them into a document

03:22:01

and then highlight your highlights and i'm like god like this is not this is you know for for me coming from like the lumanian school i'm like this is sacrilegious like you have a subtle custom book talking about highlighting

03:22:13

like that is absurd you know um so anyways i i would uh yeah my stance is that you are correct and in in in saying that you know i mean i i think i think reading does fall under the the

03:22:26

settle cost and workflow because you know that's that's that's the reason that's the reason i i don't use um settle costs in and i i like my you know term coin of the term

03:22:39

anti-net because saddle costing really just means a note box but it's not just a note box it's a special type of note box and it's yeah it's also you know as it's um yeah so

03:22:51

yeah so my my reasoning is pretty similar so this is also sometimes i i uh i i failed this but i try to always distinguish between the settle custom

03:23:05

and the settle custom method and i made it a point to always say it's a custom method method yeah i've seen a way of doing things and it to me it's quite logically because when you read

03:23:17

it's different if you have a set of custom or not if you haven't set a custom you read different for example is that you don't need to understand during your first reading process

03:23:30

like like i do uh the process um or the processing of the of the book or the text you don't need to understand everything as good uh as you need to have without the

03:23:43

settle custom because you know that you are processing what you are reading later on at least the second time so i'm willing to sacrifice a little bit of understanding and comprehension in

03:23:55

the first reading process because i know that i'm going diligently in the second process through all the passages and sections that are highlighted or i don't

03:24:09

highlight like this but i just make a dot when something is interesting yeah it's just so so i was going to ask you you mentioned it earlier you do the dot method a dot margin method yep i talk about that in my my my book i've i've uh

03:24:22

i've adopted the same type of uh or i used to i don't really do it anymore because i use the bib card you know yeah um but yeah do you use the big cut just the bib card or do you choose the bib card in conjunction with the book when

03:24:35

you write the the actual note for yourself custom um i i that's a good question i it depends i think i do both i i always have the book available you know and i

03:24:49

also have the bib card but i try not to use the book because the book slows me down you know of having to go back and reread it i try to capture the entire essence of the idea

03:25:01

in my it on the bib card however if it requires me to excerpt and write like a little bit of like here's what the author says like one sentence then i will still have the book on hand um yeah

03:25:14

yeah what what i in addition to do is i give myself in the margins i don't try to summarize or or to like refer what the content of the

03:25:27

interesting section is but i rather give my future self uh tasks so for example it might be that uh i write compare it to nietzsche or

03:25:40

uh no or um read it through the lens of uh buddhist x and y oh interesting and then why when when i process it then i have like one task

03:25:52

that i can uh that i can fulfill so my reading my personal uh not only my personal reading process of course i think everyone should read like uh like i'm do uh i do my reading but my reading process is really like

03:26:06

re reading is for like having a feel for the whole thing what that you are reading and the second part or the second row of reading would be okay now you have or the the basic skeleton

03:26:20

and then you first extract out every piece that you can and recon contextualize it in your own context within the settle custom and the second

03:26:34

sometimes important sometimes not is to actually create a much more condensed version of what you are what you read and for example with the flow uh

03:26:47

the flow books i think i read like four of them by chick sent me high the whole nearly every book could be summarized like in three pages or four it's the flow channel and you

03:27:03

have some peripheral uh models and uh and uh uh uh theoretical background um that's floating around and uh so i'm trying to build my mental model of what flow actually means with

03:27:17

all the um with no loss of information so this can be a bit lengthy and the individual components of of the model and thoughts and and sometimes of course even arbitrary so some i i i

03:27:31

process uh everything of the book so i'm not very i'm not selective i don't read the book for example with an interest in mind or something like that but i try to read it like true to uh to the

03:27:44

book and the second process then allows me to i always to me it's uh the picture in mind is like the the alien in many black part two in the postal office

03:27:57

so what i'm doing is like i am uh the guy is putting the letters uh in the thing and me and my subtle custom are the alien that like sort sort all the notes uh

03:28:11

into the right places with the 100 arms or something like that and i think this context relates contextualization gives gives away why

03:28:24

writing with a cell custom cannot be copy and paste because when you have uh given each node a context so a place with with links and link context and what not

03:28:37

when you write a book you take the note out you take part of the context out but the original context and the original note or the other way around um gets now a new context and the new

03:28:49

context is like the book so you basically write the content with another goal in the mind so it's not like for your personal understanding it's not in relationship to other knowledge that is

03:29:01

already in your settle custom but for example you need to have in mind what the reader already knows so if you write about something you need to have in mind does he know that the

03:29:14

reader knows all the concepts or what did you prime him correctly or something like that you're talking about you're talking about when you're actually writing writing the book yes exactly because you're not going to uh

03:29:27

yes yeah you're when you're when you're writing the book you're thinking about the actual reader sequentially going through the book so you're gonna you're gonna yeah

03:29:40

provide the necessary context to understand the context of this idea that grew like contextually in your settle costume which in itself was

03:29:54

inspired by its own context in which it was placed within the actual book um yeah unless you're a lumen then you just don't care

03:30:06

well yeah that's that's one of the things that i've experienced i'm like oh thank god that like i have i'm using you know like ulysses and the digital uh word word processor digital

03:30:18

text editor because i think lumen like you know part of part of the reason was because he only had a typewriter so it was a lot harder for him like when i'm like writing chapters right now i'm like just like spewing it

03:30:30

out and getting it out there and i'm like okay i can then rearrange it you know like on on uh in the text editor um and he he's you know on on record of

03:30:42

saying like he didn't really edit that heavily um you know and uh um yeah so that's why he was like able to create so many books is because he didn't really bother with the structure

03:30:53

or editing heavily um though though johannes did find um in his manuscripts he would do like his page his manuscripts you know they would uh they would kind of have that numeric

03:31:06

alpha scheme that he had so you would find like page one page two um page 2a page 2b page 3. so he would still edit sort of you know but not not to the not to the

03:31:19

level that we can do today like moving around blocks of uh you know digital codes and pair he couldn't move around paragraphs as easily and re-re-edit it um so you know that's

03:31:32

yeah that's that's one of the things i'm i'm grateful for otherwise i think i would i think this book would be a uh entangled uh spaghetti web kind of like more like lumens books but i'm able to untangle it

03:31:45

a little bit easier ah this reminds me i had i just uh was it called not another student in my class when i was in the uh

03:31:58

10th grade um she did it in her uh in our exams so when when we had our exams i remember like vividly so amre

03:32:11

horsbrink if you listen to it you are greeted she did basically write paragraphs on many sheets of papers and then numbered in the according uh in in in

03:32:25

the order and then just gave a bunch of papers uh to the teacher when when the time was over for the exam it was like back then even as even back then i thought this is really

03:32:38

really intelligent yeah but i but i wasn't invested in school so i didn't yeah copy it like sadly yeah yeah yeah that's interesting she had her own like little mini settle costume method you know yeah yeah exactly

03:32:52

but yeah this this might be out this this is perhaps one of the one of the um how would you call it linchpins of the cellcast method

03:33:04

how how how do you find order or not order not order in in the in in the in the meaning that having a system with with connections but like really like a

03:33:17

chronicle chronolog chronological order yeah for something because when you explain something you're already doing it so imagine uh like for example when i uh when i teach boxing

03:33:31

i wouldn't just teach everything at the same time so what i personally uh do when i show some other people boxing i go from the feet i tell so are the

03:33:42

feet and then you go you go you go then you move your hips and when hips and feets are in uh in sync or uh uh function properly then i go to the arms and so on so forth but to me because i

03:33:56

think i box like for 14 years or some something like that um it's like it's it's like riding a bicycle there's no order there's no nothing there's no no combinations or something i just i

03:34:09

just stand there and and hit somebody or the the sandbag and i think this is what we already are doing in when we teach when when when we talk so i don't

03:34:22

the words i i i speak are not like arbitrary sorted out it's like sequential so you can understand it but it's kind of strange that it is a problem because

03:34:35

i don't prepare what i talk i just can talk and it's sequential and you can understand most of the things even though it's not even my my first language but yeah when you write the book

03:34:48

somehow it gets very difficult to find the correct order isn't it strange yeah yeah i uh yeah and then and there's uh

03:35:00

because i'm like i'm writing you know certain things and i'm like okay well um i'm like yeah yeah it's it because it grows and balloons you know so much and

03:35:14

uh especially when you you write about something and you know you have like a chapter dedicated to that later on and you're like okay well i don't want to go down the rabbit hole explaining this i'll

03:35:25

just kind of like touch upon it and then just say more will be written about this later in my book or something like that you know and like or yeah there's there's earlier earlier sections and

03:35:36

um yeah it's it's hard to simplify the complex is what we're getting at okay it's good i think we need to wrap it up yeah but not because i'm tired of course it's just my dog who needs to uh

03:35:55

go to the toilet yeah yeah yeah well well uh good luck with your with your training for for the dog sounds like she's made some uh huge huge strides oh no she's she's

03:36:08

today we had like a like a little fight this is this is actually like strange with her show she doesn't buy it but every step in before she redirects so today

03:36:19

we met another uh we met a german shepherd and the german shepherd like pretends attacked us she was just a little bit reactive and then she um

03:36:31

my little witch like tried to like to pretend attack back i corrected her just so basically i just uh uh pulled the leash to me and then she tried to attack me so i grew up and just fix it at her

03:36:43

and then she tried to proceed to attack me against my resistance so it was like a little hands-on hands-on fight and i i have like i've basically negative fear to dogs so this um if i wouldn't

03:36:57

have it like it's really really uh disgusting what the foster dad did because it's it was basically not not fraud and she's my first dog so my first own dogs i should say

03:37:09

so and most other first dog owners would have get bitten or messed us up so she would actually bite because with me she never learned that biting or

03:37:22

aggression could lead to any success because in any confrontation she she was like really confrontational in the beginning um i made sure that she's that there's no success in it so when

03:37:35

she defended her food um like hyper aggressively i just continued to um or ended the confrontation with taking the food away no matter what she did and

03:37:47

something like that yeah you know because of it's my first talk okay you see i'm i'm in reality i'm tired yeah yeah i'm jumping on every association in

03:38:00

my brain yeah what we should do is just just uh for for any of the uh watchers and and uh viewers who have who have gotten this far uh send send sasha some love for his uh for taking care of his dog and being so uh

03:38:13

so so awesome it's a dog owner but yeah man i know i'm sasha i'm i'm super appreciative that you uh that you reached out and that we did this we've like like you said you know we've got we've been going on for a long time and

03:38:25

i i hope people like you said like you know peop you think uh this long form content is the future you know we've created our own little uh joe rogan version of uh yeah you know knowledge management so um yeah i'm i really

03:38:39

enjoyed this and uh you know i guess we'll see how the viewers liked it if they like it you know they can leave a comment but you know i would love to do another one on another topic or even like lumen stuff or intellectual

03:38:51

stuff in the future so yeah i'm down to it so ah i uh uh we didn't even touch the the the questions by the the reddit uh folks and the cell custom folks yes yeah

03:39:03

so there's a lot of things to talk about yes yes for sure yeah yeah i think we probably you know brush brushed upon those those those questions and they probably heard some of it but yeah yeah maybe we could do that next time um i

03:39:17

yeah i'm love to talk um you know anything and everything related to this field you know even more like intellectual sociology philosophy stuff lumen stuff you know sounds like you've

03:39:29

done a lot of reading in in in that area too so um so yeah yeah i'll i'll let you go i know it's late over there and yeah we can