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uh greetings everyone um i'm nate angel and uh i welcome you all to uh session that i'm really excited for actually um because it has two of my favorite people on
earth in it um and we're going to be talking about social annotation in science technology engineering and math well we may not touch on all those subjects but at least science for sure
um and many other topics as well um i want to thank you all for coming i'd like to kind of kick things off by um just saying a little bit about these two folks and then i'm going to ask them
uh a very specific question so that you can get to know them a little bit better and why they're here so i actually have come to know both of these people best over twitter interestingly enough um
uh there's been some face-to-face interaction too but it's actually twitter where most of our interaction has taken place and i would say that's one of the it's actually uh knowing people like this that has been one of the reasons why twitter has been
incredibly important to my professional practice because i get to um connect with um really uh fine finely tuned vines and and really humorous humorous folks as well on this way and
so um i want to formally introduce um clarissa sorensen unra who um has kind of wears multiple hats as both an educator and a scholar
i'm working at a couple different institutions in new mexico that you can see there on your screen as well as globally where she uh works to take over the world um
like a certain a certain mouse who has plants that was a reference to pinky in the brain i see that of course i got it and then um karen congialosi uh who i have had the pleasure to actually
spend some time face to face with uh as well um as well as online um who uh as a scholar and educator working keene state and new hampshire as well as globally and i know that one of the
things that i kind of remember most about her if i'm not mistaken and think about often is that she has a pretty intense relationship with spiders and uh maybe she can say a little bit
more that when we get into it but i'd like to kick things off here if my guests will will entertain this um by asking you to say a little bit more about what it is
that you do day to day as a scholar and educator um and then follow that up with how you came to know social annotation and start using it in your practice um so a little bit about you and then a
little bit about your relationship to social annotation and i thought i might start with um clarissa who i know is risa so i may accidentally call her that sometimes that's awesome that's totally fine um i you did the big
head thing i'm not sure about that okay i can move it back um i'm like i'm a little nervous now nate okay um my i what do i do in the day today i teach uh full time at
central new mexico community college i teach chemistry and statistics and i also am a phd student in learning sciences hopefully with my dissertation done
by summer of next year crossed fingers um and i'm also known a fair amount of the time for doing a lot in ungrading which is what my dissertation is
actually on um and so it is uh lovely to be here with you all my day-to-day is mostly teaching and reading a lot of journal articles and coming up with
uh ways to think about ungrading that are kind of novel and design-based research and so that's what i spend my time doing how do i know social annotation well i have no idea how i got to know a
social annotation actually i was thinking about this i was like twitter kind of yeah pretty sure it was twitter i'm pretty sure it was twitter and i'm pretty sure it was remy who with his uh you know
annotate your hype your syllabus kind of moment um that was awesome but i i use it pretty regularly in classes i don't use it
profoundly in classes but i love every time that i use it or i can take advantage of it so that's that's kind of how i and i would love to do more but i don't teach the higher level classes always
that would require it got it and that's you know i think we can let's we'll delve into that more in the conversation today um let's let's let me pose the same question to karen then so what is it that you do day to day as a
scholar and educator um and uh how did you come to know social annotation and start using it in your practice okay well i mean it is a big question and uh thanks nate for inviting me currently i am a program
director for the regional leaders of open education network which is a project of the ccc oer which is the north american node of oe global so that's kind of a lot a mouthful and many
of you might if you know me you know i'm also a professor of biology at keene state college and i'm doing this gig as program director for about a year and a half and maybe longer we'll see how we'll see how that goes i'm excited about that so
um i i certainly came to know social annotation in my teaching practice through being an open education advocate and like doing work in the open what does it mean to teach in the open what does it mean for
students to be able to learn and create and discover in the open and so i've used a lot of a hypothesis with my biology students for them being able to engage in
conversations with their peers by annotating articles together and not just their peers in the classroom but across different classes and even occasionally bringing experts
into the conversation so it's really kind of a wonderful thing and tool to use and when i started using annotation with my students and getting them to get hypothesis accounts
um they wanted to use it for themselves so they started creating um well they would create a bibliography for themselves on their projects and then they would say well let's get into hypothesis
and talk about our articles with each other in our own little groups and um if they would invite me into that discussion because i wanted some feedback i would hop in and if they didn't need me i wouldn't so i i love the way that my students sort of
came organically to the way that they like to use social annotation in their projects and things like that so um i could talk more specifically about my courses and some of that but i'll i'll uh i'll leave it
there for now and we'll see what else nate has in store for us okay great yeah that that's so fantastic i'm curious karen you know given your the new role that you've taken on are you are you able to teach less
right now i mean are you on are you not teaching as much i should say yeah i'm just i'm definitely uh teaching less as in probably teaching zero at least for a little while yeah so this is definitely a full a
full-time sort of program director gig but working but i would say i'm not actually teaching xero because i'm teaching others that we can think of ourselves as students right so faculty development
work is also teaching i often talk about how i take an open pedagogical approach to a group of people whether it's faculty staff administrators or what we consider traditional students so i like to still think of myself as a
teacher and a learner in these contexts so and maybe we'll even use hypothesis instead of our some of our program development work as we have and i've done that in all my faculty learning communities actually one that i ran
recently which is a learning community for stem through the cube's network we have this score program there's a lot of acronyms out there but i ran in open practices in stem
learning community that went for about six weeks and we started with annotating a number of articles and continued to do that too so so yeah while i'm not teaching traditional aged college students i
still think of myself as a teacher yeah i love that and i uh i i think it's really um you know intrinsic to your open pedagogical practices that you don't
draw boundaries like that around what is teaching and who is a student who's a learner i should say i guess and um so it's great that you're able to take on this new role and yet
still probably be everything that's uh that you had been will you still be bringing spiders into your work so i am traditionally my my dissertation research was arachnology
behavioral ecology of social spiders i worked in the amazon jungle and so unfortunately i don't get to do spider research much anymore but i'm still a member of the american arachnological society i still
have colleagues there and one of the things i'm trying to actually do with the aas is to help build oer resources for that community so um and just as a hobby my partner and i
love to actually capture flies and throw them into the funnel spider webs that live in the bushes out front so we just do that for fun feeding the spiders i love that and it's mostly her that wants to do it i'm like really honey
[Laughter] we have i live in portland oregon where i'm calling in from now and we have quite a few spiders on both inside and outside here so there's quite a there's quite a lot of activity around um
around the social the social network of spiders in our house and we try to treat them with respect well um that is that is such exciting news for you and um
i love that the dissertations that we have here in front of us here include both arachnology if i'm pronouncing that right wow my my my greek is a little
little fuzzy and um and uh ungrading which i think is a really fascinating practice that i believe in my experience really dovetails well with um i mean
most of the people i know who are using social annotation working with social annotation often have an interest in uh ungrading as well and so course i wonder if you could maybe help us connect those two
kind of worlds of ungrading and social annotation or maybe how you think of them as being connected you're starting with the simple and easy questions yes i know i i can you just lay out your dissertation for us yeah okay let me uh just make
this happen for you um so i think that what happens is what we're starting to see with with ungrading is that folks who are more willing to ungrade and take on that as a as a set of you
know i mean ungrading is really a spectrum of in my mind laboratory oriented pedagogical approaches to evaluation to student evaluation so that
that is like its own kind of thing um doesn't really include necessarily annotation but in in my experience folks who do formative assessment who do
reflective writing who do things like social annotation and want folks to think through or kind of critical pedagog type people tend to also embrace
ungrading and so this makes sense on several levels um in terms of thinking about if you think about not just ungrading as a pedagogical practice that falls under
like critical pedagogy but also because it's a seating of power in terms of intersectionality you could maybe start thinking about it as also a pedagogy of care and that's really i think the
undergirding um idea of all of these people who we have as kind of a community of learners practitioners whatever um that ungrading folks tend to also be very
interested in in implementing pedagogies of care and that an annotation piece of trying to teach people how to read articles better and more clearly
in terms of getting the information that you actually need out of them it's not that they can't read effectively to begin with but that you're trying to help them see like this is kind of a skill sometimes you need to read this part but
that's only if you need to do this um and start to have conversations about what's important and what's not that all falls under the pedagogies of karen interesting that you brought up that
that extra term pedagogy of care which uh folks folks in the audience i don't i i please you know feel free to use the chat if you're unfamiliar with the ungrading and pedagogy of care kind of um discourses for lack of a
better term uh feel free to shout out there and there's there's all sorts of people here who probably will be chiming in and we'll talk about it more on stage yeah i i feel like there's a whole
um sort of um critical mass uh i see it happening on twitter at least twitter's gonna keep coming back into this conversation we can't help it but a kind of critical mass coalescing around pedagogies of care
that seems to include a lot of these usual suspects if you will of different practices so ungrading maybe social annotation oer and open pedagogical kind of practices
we might also add to that list things like renewable assignments as opposed to disposable assignments um and uh sort of um
you know people who are focused on learner agency as opposed to teacher agency and things like this and i know you reminded me um russa that um this actually
isn't your guys's you and you and karen's first gig um working together to talk about this kind of stuff um because you led uh you kind of co-led uh an experience
um at in another venue if i'm not mistaken and i'm wondering if you guys wanna do you wanna refer back to that conversation a little bit because it could well be that there's a there's a rich set of resources that people could also explore there
i'm gonna have to find it no what what happened is that i was doing the the digital pedagogy lab track on stem and it was the first time i was ever doing it and you know i'm a phd student so i was like
let's have 20 articles for you to read and people were like no you can't do that so then i was like okay let me go ask experts i know who really understand these ideas
to have like a conversation on zoom about what this is actually encompassing and karen was so gracious and actually saying yes i will come and talk to you about what do we even talk about
talk about oer and step like what was the i topic it was open science but i think we did critical pedagogy and stuff that's what we did together so so i had done critical pedagogy one day
and then we integrated it into stem that's i think that's what it's about i'll put the video in the chat yeah yeah and i think that like for me like i i like to remind people that open
education is part of a whole open ecosystem and as a scientist like thinking about what is open science and what is open education and how are they integrated and i talk a lot about how those of us
that are science teachers as we're teaching students like how to do science why aren't we teaching them how to do science openly so not just like the open pedagogy of science but the pedagogy of open science if that
makes sense and so um you know there's a lot of things about how science is done and how there can be ways in which it's difficult for people to think about putting all of their data and results
and everything out there completely openly but i think the open science community has definitely made use of annotation in terms of thinking about not just open access publishing but open review
and how can you use open annotation for giving feedback to each other on every step of the scientific process not just in the formulation of your manuscripts but in the development of your methodology for your
science and so modeling that with my students in my upper level science courses i feel like is a good way of saying hey you can put your projects out here openly and people like yeah well they're just students who cares about their
projects anyway but in fact they're kind of getting in the practice of thinking about what does it mean to share data you know what does it mean to use open data sets which is part of this open ecosystem and
and how can annotation actually help us think about how we have discussions about all of these things i love the integration within the open ecosystem and tools that allow us to do that integrative work and
and annotation is is one of them for sure yeah that's it's i'm so glad that you went in that direction karen because i think we've now i think i hope that folks here have a little bit of context around
some of the things that you guys have done some of your practices the way you approach things um with this general um as general talk but if we if we turn back into social annotation a little more specifically now um jeremy
dean my colleague hypothesis who i'm sure you know uh from twitter as well if not in real life um has posed this question i'm going to throw it up on stage and see if we can we can even delve a little bit more deeply along that thread
that you were that you were beginning karen so yeah it's a straw question it's a little bit of a softball but um i think karen you're already exploring a little bit about why
working in the open um at any level of kind of uh moment in your science in your science scholarship right whether you're just a beginning student or you know an advanced scholar working in
the open has a kind of purpose and meaning and so if we even just think about reading like how is it that reading is an important practice in the sciences
and then maybe extend that to to where social annotation can maybe help with reading in the sciences i love this question i think it's such a great question um and like we think of reading as a very
personal kind of act um but in fact what is social reading because reading um is something that we don't always think about something that we teach
in in college right like that's something that you teach younger children to do but in fact how do you what does it mean to read and actually interpret what you're reading and and like reflecting what your
thoughts are on what you just read is how we sort of think about what good and extensive reading is and so having that opportunity to read closely means that you're talking about what you
read and if you can do that publicly in like annotation space then it becomes a social things because then others are engaging in that reading we're reading together we're critiquing together we're coming
to an understanding together which i think is pretty exciting i love when i see my students annotating pieces and they'll say well i think what you mean is and somebody else coming in and say well actually the way i took it was
you know so if you if you read something and it's only in your head you're not getting that that benefit there so that that sort of social socially engaged reading um which is done openly i think is
has really a lot of value and i'll i'll let risa talk for a while too oh okay well all right then um i think that that i think you're exactly right karen i think that kind of
reading but i also find students who um like i mean reading a science article is like reading a second language it's not always not always in words that are easily understandable
um because it has a language into itself and so sometimes there's some definitions that need to happen there's sometimes some things that need to be clarified and certainly you know i mean one of the things that
that almost everyone skips in science articles forgive me if you don't do this but um is the methodology section because unless you're trying to reproduce that experiment it is very
thick and it's very like here's all the things that we did and this is all the analysis we did and so um and that's really more results but you know you you get a sense of like i can get
bogged down for hours just trying to understand this methodology stuff and so i think that trying to help them kind of understand these are the things that you want to be getting from the articles not just
can you guys talk about them in a general sense and reflect on them and kind of get a sense of it it there's also a piece of scaffolding of yeah like heather was saying you want to
you want to ask some questions and and get some responses because just because you know how to read doesn't mean you know how to read science articles well or easily or that it won't take you for freaking
ever to make make it happen and so i think them helping each other is really important there but in terms of like i mean i think this goes for your professional development stuff i think it also goes for like phd work one of
the things that you constantly do in phd work is like you should be annotating and you should be right writing micro notes about what you're doing so that you can come back later and
figure that out and that's something that could be really helpful i think along those lines like as you're taking notes for yourself and that you know that's what we traditionally call keeping a lab notebook you know when you're an
investigator but but why not make that public and social you know and i like having students even interest students even my first year students in intro biology like instead of like keeping your closed lab notebook
that nobody else is supposed to look at or copy right like this is the philosophy behind open it's like it's not plagiarism it's not copying it's a sharing of ideas so everybody keep their lab notebook open and online and out there
for others to see and and an easy way to make comments on somebody else's lab notebook which is basically just a web-based thing is to is to you is to do some annotations so
just kind of i think that the tool is really what we're talking about is that it makes it easier to have that kind of conversation and prop provide feedback in these sort of open lab notebook spaces well and i can visualize
it being used in like i mean it would be awesome if i had my dissertation in iterations right like i had thought about doing this and then i was like i don't know do i do this i mean sometimes you just
have to do it but it's also the the you know is my school tied to plagiarism still and whether they're using some kind of you know um turnitin or whatever and don't get me
started on that but um that kind of piece of if i publish publish it on the web is it suddenly a published moment but it would be very cool if we could get past that whole um
idea of plagiarism and particularly self-plagiarism that if i had the iterations and we could just you know talk about it as it's a developmental process i think that's the piece that i really want to
see like what you were saying with reviewing and all of these pieces it would have been really helpful to see the other reviewers comments when i was learning how to review because i was talking about editing
stuff and they were talking about the science oh oh that's what i'm supposed to be talking about and they don't share that stuff right so that would have been really helpful to know in the process
yeah and that's like i think this whole culture of sort of secrecy right and keeping things to yourself and if you copy somebody else you're plagiarizing is is replicated at higher levels where you know i'm not going to put my
ideas out there because somebody else is going to scoop them you know what is it that we do and value in the sciences is it about creating the individual rock star scientist that goes off and oh keeps
his studied up to himself i'm using male pronouns quite intentionally there so keep that to themselves and so that way they just get a lot of recognition or is it about adding knowledge to the world and i'm
bringing this up lately too like what if there weren't patents on covet vaccines you know right the development of the vaccine was really really quick but in fact if people shared data and they shared their formulas for we'd have
a lot more vaccine a lot more quickly like what does it mean to think about public health and public advancement of science and so all of that goes back into how do we train our students as
scientists to think about what it means to do science as part of a community and if we if we say you're not copying and plagiarizing you know your your data set isn't being stolen or scooped we're actually
sharing it and we're looking at it together and we're trying to find its meaning together so that we can actually look at what are those results telling us and what are the questions that we want to investigate next and what are the three
things that we can learn so that we benefit the greatest number of people instead of just trying to do an individual or corporate profit so i'm gonna i'm gonna lapse into a speech now i haven't already reach into the choir
it's fine it's all good hey that's all good did um if unless i wanted to um follow up with that um i know that um karen might actually have to leave a little bit early and there is
a special thing i wanted to get to too that i think actually dovetails really well into the conversation so far and might also take us a little bit more into kind of the pedagogy of using social annotation
in these contexts um whether that be with you know uh you know early students or or doctoral students or people who are already working scientists right i mean learners across the board right so if you'll bear with me i'm actually
going to share my screen and bring something up here if you guys are you guys ready for that i know it's going to be exciting so ready this is going to be great we have the technology i know now that i've built it up
uh yeah so where is it how [Laughter] he's like i believe in my ability to manipulate the technology it's fine although we just jinxed it right um so
going back to twitter um go heather go for a second here and i'm just going to point out that um heather uh macelli masali i'm afraid i don't know how to pronounce that either i'm really bad with the italian last names
apparently yeah masali talk about last minute invitations you should see when i invited her um all right that's it if you want to raise your hand
we can bring you up on stage two hours ago that's hilarious do you want to uh oh we got it here we're gonna we're gonna bring heather up on stage
um there we go hello heather hi that was two hours ago wow so i had 20 phone books in the middle of getting a manicure um
and i got that fabulous so i was like sure and i'll pretend like that was really poor planning on my part but it was actually it came out of this serendipitous moment because this morning when i was um perusing
twitter as is my want there's the english english profit me um i came across this tweet of heathers where she was responsible for something i couldn't see myself from
writing into it i'm like just leave it alone yeah i i did not follow that wise word and instead um i ended up responding but it led me to it led me to a new
understanding of something that uh that i thought you guys might want to riff on a little bit be as as kind of deeper pedagogues than i am so you know heather was commenting on something that dan who i don't know actually was i don't actually know
heather until today either really but i mean sort of but on twitter right so we're new friends right um but anyway we were talking about this
idea about uh confidence uh in class and and whether that should be a learning outcome of class and then katie got involved um too pushing back on the idea a little bit
around whether building confidence you know is is necessarily an outcome and then chris joined in and started talking about this zone of proximal developments
which i believe comes from the is it zagatsuki yeah pigotsky right and which learning experiences right a russian learning center so i actually didn't know
i mean i i knew i knew about uh his work but i didn't know about the zone of proximal development work specifically within it um so this was the new learning moment for me and it kind of goes back to what i think that we were starting to explore in
terms of how is it that we scaffold for lack of a better term you know um people's introduction into new knowledge right if that new knowledge we're talking about science here
you know and it's not just about them doing certain exercises but it's also about having them envision themselves as scientists the way that karen was kind of talking about it right and um you know learning learning from chris
and the other people on this thread um he introduced me to this um wikipedia page uh which i'll put in the chat for everybody else's benefit here oh when it comes to the twitter link
hopefully that'll work uh about about this zone of proximal care stuff and i of course took a good look at it using my my goofy goggle and um i one of the things that i thought was
really interesting about it that was a new takeaway for me was how um you know uh and you guys can speak to this better than i can so i'll shut up in just a second but um let me just get that my my aha
moment out and that was that um in the process i need to stop goofy um in the process of helping other people uh sort of advance the boundaries of
their knowledge with certain in certain areas whether it's science or something else it's not only sort of meeting them where they're at and helping them negotiate the boundaries of what they know
already and don't know yet and so there's like a really fine line there to help them sort of navigate that boundary which is that what this zone of proximal development seems to be about but it's also that the social part of negotiating that
zone um is what zygotsuki was saying was so important it's one of the components he was saying is so important and that's where i started to connect it back to the idea of social annotation and how if we're reading together we can
be exploring that zone and proximal development together in a way that wouldn't be possible if we didn't have that social capability so now i'm going to be quiet and see if you all have something more
intelligent to say about that than what i was talking about so the really interesting part about that is the zona proximal development also talks about how people can be too far along
the zone of proximal development so a professor is like too far away from the students and so that's where the social part especially in the classroom becomes really important
because students are much closer to each other's zones and so there's not a mismatch of expectations versus where the students actually are when the students are learning together
and so that's why social annotation especially having students read and respond to each other is sometimes a little bit more powerful than even just responding to the
professor in some way yeah i was going to say good old love with his zones of proximal development um the the idea right the idea of that
is that i can't possibly explain it to you after 20 years of having it exp you know explaining it over and over and over again as an expert and this also has to do with power right it's not just a a conversation about
can i do it it's also uh do i have can i you know is are you gonna allow me because i'm the more powerful member of this
um to have uh the same kind of place a pure wood which is not easy to negotiate and actually just doesn't happen and so that's why sometimes when you add yourself into a social annotation group
like karen was talking about at the beginning suddenly everyone scatters like it's like everyone goes to the four wins because they don't want to look stupid in front of the professor and that is really deeply problematic
um but in terms of the zones of proximal development i think social annotation has a wonderful place for being able to make that happen especially if you just let it be um and i kept on talking about
scaffolding because i was like well but there is a piece of letting it be for a while right and let it develop and develop and develop and then call into question of
like so what do you think about this like what explain this more to me or that kind of piece because it's all about timing and framing and so with that i will
see my the good lady from the end well um yeah i feel like we're talking about a lot of different things here which is awesome and um and i know that when heather sort of wrote her first tweet she was talking
about student confidence you know and that the idea was that you know why would anybody want their students to feel left less confident than they would more confident in whatever it is they're
doing whether they're learning to write or learning biology or chemistry and so um the pushback was well maybe it's okay for students to not feel so confident they don't know everything that's kind of how i read it and it is
true like it it is true that that certainly the students are maybe learning about even the whole world of what they don't even know yet which i think we're all doing like oh my
god i had no idea biology was such a big field like oh my gosh but i but i don't think that they're i don't think that that students can come to that understanding that there's so much more to know here i
i don't think that's antithetical to them having confidence like they can say gosh there's so much to know that i don't know but i feel confident that i can learn it one day you know and i think the idea of
building confidence with students or helping them to build their confidence at the same time is giving them a sense of what the vast field of knowledge is i don't think our students necessarily
come in you know maybe there's a few that i think there was kind of a little bit of a a tone of well they just think they know everything and we need to take them down okay and maybe maybe they didn't mean that i mean i i think it is true that they
will not realize just how much there is to know but that is not necessarily um the need to sort of make them feel less confident i think that we can still help our
students feel confident and that when they work socially i think i think rissa was was really trying to explain this like and maybe heather too that when they work in a group you know they they can give each other confidence and
maybe that is like all the students can gang up against the professor and their safety and numbers or something but i do think that we definitely want to work towards allowing our students to feel confident
which is really different than saying oh yeah you're such an expert you know everything already i think i think there's a real difference there yeah i i work with katie like katie
works with me at roger williams and i i don't think she was saying that we shouldn't keep going like keep up confidence obviously she wasn't saying that we need to bring them down we just need them realize
that they might come in with extra confidence but is it really confidence or maybe is it arrogance and like kind of deal with kind of those kinds of things
um but you know one thing i want to i wanted to share with the zone of proximal development um it kind of has to do with social annotation kind of doesn't um i work with my student i work with
non-major students so all of my students come in with varying degrees of confidence lots with like zero confidence in science and um so i have to have my students you know
create the textbooks for the next set of classes and that's one of the biggest places where the zone of proximal development is actually really important um is in the text that we choose and kind of tying that into social
annotation it that you know bringing in that social reading can then help kind of bring that you know you've got this much to learn well if you bring in somebody you know
the students that do have the confidence they can bump it up a little bit and close that zone of proximal development but there's always a lot of mismatch between professors and students and sometimes that's that gets in the
way of student learning because of the zone of proximal development yeah i was going to weigh in on the confidence thing i think confidence is absolutely critical to build
but that's also different than belonging right being able to see yourself as belonging to the science profession and that is um definitely i think that any time that
we start to tread on the idea of we need to not you know we need is it arrogance do we need them to be is is still problematic i agree with karen in terms of this becomes a a moment because even if
you're just talking to some set of students who have read wikipedia and think they know everything um you're still modeling that behavior for the entire class and it is um i think that
i think that we have to delve into the the belonging moments there too in terms of like have i just killed the ability for my native student to be able to see
themselves as a scientist because i knocked down someone who was trying to bring up something it just it it strikes me as the wrong kind of uh
moment but that's also something you have to a little bit look at when they're social annotating because attitude does come out really you're really hitting um things that
arisa like that were that were you know talking a lot about like um again i'm going back to the idea that open pedagogy is about student students constructing knowledge not just consuming it right and so and a lot of
times people say well you know especially in stem our students aren't capable of doing that and and so that means like well our students are not capable of replicating your white supremacist structural way of looking at
science right so but maybe your indigenous student has a way of looking at something that you've never looked at it before and by having the ability for them to create their own thing and bring their own
epistemic stance to this the perspective of what you're talking about is such an opportunity for us to to learn as well and so i i think that there's a lot of a lot of pieces that you were delving into there
i loved that i just want to record that can i have that as your ringtone [Laughter] well and we are ready for this yeah that phrase comes from um
probably sheriff cheryl hodgkin williams and patricia orrento and uh oh look okay i'm gonna find the reference you guys talk amongst yourselves i'm gonna find it [Laughter]
there we go okay it really is about like also having confidence in your students right um that they are capable of of creating knowledge of of sharing
knowledge of making um of making meaning of things that isn't necessarily the way that i would or any of you would or anybody else would
and so obviously i have a way that i perceive science based on my identities and that's going to be different from the students that come into my classroom and not giving them the space to do that
whether through social annotation or through um open pedagogy and then not punishing them through traditional greeting practices when they do step out of the box
and that's where this whole thing ties into ungrading is upgrading gives them the risks or gives them the opportunity to take those intellectual risks that if they want to
think of a different way of looking at the sciences in which we know it maybe bring in an indigenous way of knowing or their personal experiences the ungrading
gives us that freedom to let them do that yeah and to to embrace that so the the and i also think that ungrading and this this idea of the zones of proximal
development will really kind of go hand in hand in that um we have this idea of what i was referring to as confident failing right this idea that you can't you can't
fail in the sciences and we have a whole body of research that shows all of the successes and none of the failures when science is by definition in some way shape or form
a failure of an iterative failure until it succeeds right so this whole idea of what science means and what it what it looks like as a practitioner um is is something
that is we don't convey very well and because we don't convey that very well the ontological and epic you know all of these different words i hate those big words but i use them anyway um but this idea of knowing let's just
go with the knowing that different ways of knowing even if they're an oral tradition or something along those lines really gives a sense of i can be part of this because i have the ability to share who i
am in the midst of this space and that's part of what i think social annotation allows as long as it doesn't go i mean when i was saying the attitudes come out as long as it doesn't go to bullying which i have
seen and that is a very interesting uh something that you have to deal with as a professor if you do social energy bullying in the annotation world you mean
bullying in the annotation i'm like this is public by the way but yeah yeah but i do wanna yeah we're gonna have to go back by the way to the leveraging your networks
of experts for the benefit of your students that i think is something that we haven't talked about a lot that we we i know you're driving this nate but we need to go okay well i just i'll just point out that i leveraged my network of experts
in order to put this panel together so there you have it shake it away the last possible segment just looking okay yeah more more links coming through karen found her right i did it and it's
um the uh adoption and impact of oer in the global south and it was um yeah by cheryl hodgkin williams and patricia arendto and they do talk about you know this is in
the context of open education but i think you know i think of social annotating as open education as one tool of open pedagogy and so they when they talk about oer uses access and then participating and maybe
remixing as as oer adaptation but the empowerment and the ability to create and look at something new they use the phrase of being able to assert a new epistemic stance and so i'm
giving the credit to where it's due in the in the authorship so if you find table one somewhere in that book you'll see it actually when you when you bring
up giving credit to karen that makes me think two of something i've been struggling with lately and it ties back to a practice that you brought up at the very beginning which is where your students create bibliographies and then
together socially annotate works in them which i thought was really cool practice and we should talk about that more but it it makes me think about and i know this is so true in humanities and probably in the sciences too there's such a um that the education
system is so primed to make citation and reference seem like like the most important and risky riskiest thing that you can do and to get right you know like at least in the humanities
all the effort that's spent about formatting citations correctly it's just like you could walk away from an educational experience feeling like formatting your citations correctly is the only really important thing
in intellectual work i'm wondering how this question of citation and reference um plays into this conversation about belonging and also scaffolding kind of reading and and kind
of seeing yourself as a scientist yeah and maybe there's a librarian in the crowd because i think you know my brand can really speak to the need for you know proper format for citations so people could find stuff right they always say like what's the best way to hide something
you know or like if you want to hide a book put it on the wrong shelf in the library and you know it's so now in our cyber world you know if you can't find it it's literally it doesn't exist
and so i don't want to say that no formats don't matter at all but but when that's all that we're teaching and we're not teaching the context of why like you want to be able to find something you want to categorize it for
a reason you want to say that it belongs here and not there for why i'm i'm involved in this whole sort of tagging ontology group with my cube's community where we're talking about what dens do we put things in and
why and so again i'm getting a little bit off topic with that um but i do think that a lot of what i've done with my science writing that my students do is is to use the hyperlink more than
citation format like instead instead of you copying and getting it right you know when you're citing something just hyperlink to that source even if it hyperlinks to a paywall to abstract like that you can you can find that
later and we know that hyperlinks can die and become outdated so there's there's that problem as well but i think as information is kind of always evolving it's dynamic it's ephemeral
and so hyperlinks maybe don't last forever but you know literally nothing lasts forever so as we keep keep them updated and keep your next group of students making sure they work and
refreshing them that that kind of teaching how do i find something what's relevant what's connected to something else is more important than make sure you have a colon and that you have a semicolon and then you'd format for cbe
and it's like they don't understand why like that seems out of out of touch i like that you you moved into a different voice during this i think the information literacy of like
i mean integrating some of that information literacy of this is why it's important and that that we're trying to give credit for the words to whoever was uh writing them
um not that that's the first person who said them but you know in all of those pieces of trying to really make sure that folks understand the whys behind citations
i was going to say that if hyperlinks don't work forever doi's don't either so you know just in terms of talking about things but it is still um i think that it's
important to recognize the scholarly practice of when when we um use kind of um because this is a big thing in annotation too
like what's the difference between a blog and a peer-reviewed article and let's start examining that like why is that important at all um and and to some
degree i'm like and as a teaching at a community college we don't have access to the journals so what does the difference between a pre-print site mean in terms of the journal that it
goes into versus the blog that was used to share information and what are all of these things have in common and what are the what do all of these things like actually give us in the end i think
those are all important considerations when you're social annotating or the blog that gives us misinformation well yeah i was actually going to kind of address that because so like my students
create these websites with lots of really current information like my students just wrote about the winter storm in texas this past spring there's no journal articles about that right now
so there's only like maybe a couple of blog posts news articles that kind of thing and so if they're getting information from different news sources and maybe they don't know
maybe if they're local news sources they might know that you know the political slant perhaps local news is a little bit less likely than national news but still
being able to link to that so that the reader kind of gets the idea like oh that doesn't seem quite that doesn't seem quite great where are they going and then the next set of students could maybe fix it by
checking out the source and kind of going from there and um and i can as well um but it it does lend itself to being able to check that misinformation when it happens well and i think what
we're talking about is the triangulation of information right like learning how to triangulate different data sources is actually incredibly critical to science and to stem like to writing articles and to understanding
whether this data actually reflects what's happening in whatever research you're doing and so that kind of idea
is like i'm like why don't we teach information literacy like that and many people do um but the social annotation also talks i mean especially if you're starting to say can
you give me some like some evidence as to why this works the way you think it works again that's inserting myself into the social annotation which totally kills the zpd but you know the the idea there
is that starting to be like why do we make the points we do and how can we make sure that those points are evidence based in a way that reflects what's
known and what's unknown and what does and i mean even going as far as to saying what is knowledge anyway yeah and kind of um i put something in the chat going back to something you saw a little bit earlier
earlier about publication like what is it that's really important like what are important outputs of the work that we do because sometimes publication becomes for publications its own sake right like oh i've got 12
i've got 24 i've got 32 publications but what does it need to have a meaningful output to the work that we do and i what i put in the chat is a link to um dora which is um what does that stand for the declaration of
research assessments or something but they're talking about how we use journal impact factors to say how important something is and like and so if we actually looked at pure data sets
instead of publications as outputs you know then we take away the idea that you have to publish in a really well-known star kind of journal and then again getting back to that idea of like what do we what are we teaching our students you
know are we teaching them how to produce something that can be valuable for other people are we teaching them to put something in a format and get it in a certain track for a certain journal that has a certain reputation
so that you can build your own scientific reputation and and i think it starts at the at the beginning level you know working with undergraduates maybe high school students like
what are the pathways that we take to be training the next generation of scientists and and so i think about these things when we get lost in the weeds of whether to cite something or not how to think about publication
we're already making assumptions that the structures that we have that exist right now are just good and fine and we should keep replicating them but i love these people that are taking on everything like funding agencies and
institutions and all this right because i was just arguing this point at some point with um with a couple of funding agent national founding agencies and trying to say look at the community college level
publishing it in a paywall journal does is absolutely no good like this is going to get me exposure to exactly no one that i want to have exposure to because
those people don't have the paywall access and so in terms of thinking about it i have to think about it differently and then you start to say well then we can really talk about
the annotation moments as an open annotation piece unlike the pre-print servers like why can't we do review differently that's right and i was just teddy and those publishers are making buckets of
money right like it's really like oh yes you've got your reputation but they're they're it costs money to publish there and it costs money to subscribe to those
journals and hey i'm i'm also getting the word that heather needs to head out i know she does and i actually thank you so much for dropping in heather it was it was a great moment of serendipity
yeah thank you it was lovely to see you and um on that note i know that um karen may also need to go a little bit early which would just leave that leaves us hanging out huh yeah leaves us hanging out um which
i can't imagine that we'll have anything you can talk about us while we're gone and yeah we'll watch the video later is that what we're talking about yeah so i do want to give you the opportunity
thank you i am super busy and i'm going to jump off to actually have a meeting with a student so that's lovely oh that's a worthy fun pleasure thank you so much for the pleasure honored to have been asked to be part of
this today and uh nice to see you again marissa and you nate for sure and hope our past will cross in real life again soon yes that would be i know right that'd be
all right take care of you all right thank you so much and then there were two i'm waiting for the agatha christie moment yeah well i think now we're just
in full pinky in the brain okay let's let's plot to take over the world fantastic exactly and i mean um i want to uh invite our audience to uh to get
involved as much as they want um if we're not taking this in the right direction because we're sort of free-forming it here um feel free to uh feel free to weigh in and one thing that i thought might be kind of fun is if we maybe tried to
spend a couple minutes delving even more specifically into social annotation um and uh and and in your work um one thing that i wanted to bring
folks attention to um because we've sort of been talking about a little bit is um the science in the classroom program that uh aaas um i'm gonna put a link in here to the
chat we could even bring this up on screen i guess um but only if it um only if it dovetails with with your the way you do things clarissa because oh yeah it's a little bit of a different practice
yeah no i've totally done science in the classroom i really i actually started using them for statistics when i started teaching statistics they had data tables and this is where it comes back to
karen's idea about open science that there were freely available data tables that my students could run statistics on um and and start talking about it but the context was not
as important as the statistics was if they had if i don't know if annotation is allowed on here but if annotation is now allowed on here would have been amazing to have an annotation moment i guess i could
have done annotation with this i didn't really think about it at the time um so thank you for statistics here to see what oh no you have to like get like a biochemistry or chemistry
like a biology and then you just right so so i think the idea there is that it is extremely powerful to be able to to talk about these things and the first time i actually did
um a social annotation of something in us in a group for my classes um was on and the and the data what was that
it was anne marie's um the use of the effect the use of data um oh you know what i'm talking about
i sort of do um it's it's like the ethical use of data oh yeah that's through that's through um uh i don't even know how to say the uh
athabasca yeah um i will look for that you keep talking yeah yeah no that that um because i i felt like that was the first time
that my students yeah the principles for ethical use of personalized student data there you go that's what it is okay i'll put it in the chat okay and i think i can pop it onto the
screen as well yeah um it was uh i used it because so many students don't realize how their data is being used and i just thought this would be a very interesting from a statistics point of
view where we're trying to gather data and people are trying to sign consent that yes you can use my data well what does that actually mean and how is it being used and what kinds of considerations do you have to
put into that and so that was actually the first time that i ever did an online um annotation and it was it was super cool that was
actually really fun um but then i had to stop teaching statistics because they used respondus but anyway this would have been very cool i didn't do it publicly sorry no that
makes sense i wouldn't have done it publicly and often with students you have to make that consideration of like am i going to are we going to do this publicly or are we not karen always comes down on the do it publicly
why not um and i often am like well you know there might be some some growing moments that i don't want you to have to
do this publicly um because i i don't want it held against you if someone somehow found it and you're trying to run for something right like i just right right you need to have growth space
sometimes um and you can still invite experts to that growth space which is why i like the private group idea in hypothesis as well yeah and anytime this topic comes up i always
reach toward an english scholar sorry uh amanda lacastro who um was the first person to introduce to me this idea of um again scaffolding people's social annotation
experience so that right when you begin the process you might be annotating privately even just with yourself right just making notes then maybe expanded out a layer to your classmates in a particular group
or or in a particular learning community or something like that and then maybe go public fully public later on when you're when you feel ready for that right and i love the layering that you can do with annotation which is
why i don't understand why even the publishers who require like three or four reviews don't have each individual reviewer do the annotations and then at least
overlap them to see what was consensus right what was the what were the things that everyone agreed on that might be helpful and and for someone like me at the beginning
of my reviewing career maybe inviting me into that space so that i can understand how my review comments fit into the larger picture
um and that just doesn't happen and i i kind of don't understand why not yeah it's interesting all the connections here between you know everything from the kind of practice that one might have even with you know like primary school
students right right all the way up to the highest level of scientific practice when it comes to peer reviewing in journals it's sort of the same set of concerns and issues all the way through that whole
whole network right right and and if we're citing if we're getting orchid uh i mean kind of citations on whether we review things or not anyway then why not just tie our name i mean i
know a lot of people have problems with tying our name to reviews and that that needs to be an optional thing because if you're a relatively new scholar then if you're reviewing someone who's like high profile it becomes scary and the opportunity for
failure is kind of scary as well um but i i do believe in in tying your name if you want to um and having someone to talk you know recognizing that a review is a
conversation is more than it is now right because now it's it's not now it's like this we're not taking a reviewer too who's anonymous right like just says something and you have no idea who they are or what the context of
them saying it was well and sometimes i've been reviewer too and i was like you know that came off way uh more you know i really try to be nice and and some of those you know very congratulatory on like actually you got
something out so way to go but also like um here's here's all the things and i you know you see the wealth of comments that you've just put down and you're like i think i just became reviewer too and
it's extraordinarily difficult to give positive focused feedback and this is true in ungrading as well this it's incredibly difficult to give positive focus feedback that is
interpreted correctly by the person who's getting that feedback um or interpreted in the way that you intended maybe not correctly is the way that you want and so sometimes even if you really have
practice with this you write down a comment you read it three times it seems good you send it off and then it was entirely misinterpreted by the person on the other end and you're like
i thought i had that and so the conversation would have been really helpful to be like no no no i didn't mean that i meant this and this is why it's important um
and that sorry that's oh no that's that's just that's just missing yeah and it's in the peer review process you mean yeah yeah it's missing in the peer review process
and it's it's missing um when you don't do things like ungrading as well you just evaluate people for their annotations like that that needs to be a conversation because
anything can be misinterpreted it just it just requires some you know talking like okay you know let's let's talk about what you meant here yeah one reason i'm leaving this um
science in the classroom up on screen too is um there's kind of talk about annotation all the way down there's a couple couple layers of things going on here so the triple a s that that um produces this uh
this resource of science in the classroom which is really designed to help um early science learners kind of get acquainted with actual scientific publication and the complexity of reading that right
right and they have um they expose this learning lens um sort of friends awesome on the right and so you can highlight um different layers of what's going on and then this will
actually you know just um kind of bring up the words uh uh definitions of the words and i was i had this results and conclusions highlighted here and here's the really cool thing so
behind the scenes their act science in the classroom is actually using grad students and early career scientists to make annotations on scholarly articles that are then exposed to these layers
nice so it's actually a practice that more advanced science students and practitioners can get involved in as a way to help early science students kind of get their get their understanding built up
well and even the authors right if you could get the authors to comment on what was the point that you meant here like what was this really about it just that's another
moment of leveraging your personal networks for the benefits of your students like every time you bring an expert in or have someone talk you know they're going to be able to to
talk about that um particular piece of work without someone else's interpretation and if it's a if it's a particularly important thing um
to whatever you're you know trying to cover then sometimes you want that perspective and it also connects your students with people in the the workforce so that they can like or the stem world or whatever you want to talk
about it right right so that they can actually start to be like okay these are actual people and it's uh you know journal articles you know there's always the joy of you know as soon as you hit send you find the five
typos right like it's always something um that that you may have not have stated and my point is always the conversation like why aren't we having conversations about
this even with the earliest learners right and i think and i mean just to draw the finest point right that's what social annotation really can enable in in in any of those
um arenas on privacy or those levels of privacy whether it's just with yourself that conversation with yourself right like the conversation with the reader that you were the first time you read it versus the reader that you are the second time you read it
or the third time and you come back and find your notes because you have all you you've changed i won't say evolve the biologist hopefully you know the the thing is is that you do change you look at things differently
way long way later than than you did to begin with um you know someone was asking me about the ungrading chapter um that i wrote and i was like yeah i'm kind of not there anymore like that's not what i'm thinking about
at all um and in fact i didn't even do the reading to come and talk to you about it um which is horrible but you know there you go um but that that kind of piece of like being able to reflect
back on on what you were doing my only problem with that is that we spent so much time doing pdfs in um
in like especially higher level work and not having an ability to to do those pdfs in like a private group or through dropbox or something would be super helpful um
if it it like not requiring that it's embedded in the lms yeah well there is um there's actually like a little secret magic that can that can help there that we could talk about
and we could do that um like that we want to get really practical but actually i was i was my the next thing i was going to say is um even really taking a really tangible direction like so you're a teacher you're primarily
teaching in community college if i'm not mistaken right yep um so you've got not only early learners but um you know learners who are just kind of at the very beginnings or um sort of continuations of their colleges
yes their college work right a very specific kind of student student right that you're encountering well many different kinds i'm sure but yeah they're all on the same classes which makes it super fun yeah right which is it's always fun um
because all learners are exactly the same right but i'm kind of curious so when it comes to your social annotation practice what like what is what are some of the first ways that you that you've introduced it with students
to get them used to maybe i don't know maybe they come in and they're already like oh annotation i know all about that but i'm guessing not it is taught a lot in elementary school now so there are there are a fair number of people who do come
in with some kind of understanding of what annotation is and then there's a whole bunch of folks who are like i have no idea what you're talking about um and and that doesn't you can have high schoolers
because we have a high school on campus that um and that does you know the high school thing and does first two years of like ap stuff sort of yeah right so so not even ap they're just
taking college classes they're trying to get a high school degree and an associate's at the same time wow when they do when they graduate and so when we have you know i can have those folks 16 year olds who
absolutely know how to annotate everything and i can have people who already have two masters and not really understand what the requirements of annotation are for science
um or for stem because i've had this in statistics as well and so it's it's partially about teaching what annotation is but it's also um i tend to approach most things
experimentally so i tend to be like let's just do it and see where we go right and you can start seeing other people's comments right and start to see oh well mine is really different from
theirs how is that different and and why is that important um but my my point in annotation at the beginning is reflection right you you're trying to learn how to to
reflect on what you've read and be thoughtful about what you're saying in the columns but you're also trying to be reflective about what other people said about this and um you know comment and have a conversation
and ask for clarification if that doesn't make any sense and if i mean everything has to be a learning opportunity but starting with what what your ideas are is almost
always easier than trying to be like well from this sentence i you know understood these 12 things um so i and as you do this more and more and
more i mean the genius of the aaas thing is that they're getting graduate students and early scientists who have been reading endless articles the more you do
it the better you get at it so it is um it's one of those things that you just have to start practicing as soon as possible and that actually um chris has added a question here um from
the audience i'm going to bring it up on stage and so yeah i was kind of headed this way too so do you how do you go about introducing like just tangibly with the students do you do you model it for them do you how do
you get them like uh do you have the high school students run out in front and show folks what to do so this is what we learned um so the idea of annotation the way i approach it is that it's going to be
iterative you're going to do it multiple times so the first time you look through the the um article you're going to find things that kind of call out and maybe you haven't you've read it the first time
and you read it really carefully but i would recommend kind of not spending all your time reading for really in depth just kind of go through it and see what jumps out at you and make
note of that get the lay of the land sort of yeah get the lay of the land and then let's look at it again and uh think more in depth about like okay what were the authors trying to
convey in the midst of this what did they think was important so there are some there of course some some questions that you can ask um that are that are based off of
the basic premise of a science paper um but you can also say you know is the introduction as important or the literature review as important
for maybe people who have been reading a lot of these things right like one of the things that's lost on people is that the more you read in a certain field especially not people students is that
the more you read on a certain field the more the less you pay attention to the literature review because you've already read all of that um and so some of these things that come over time
i think that there's a lack of understanding that maybe you know maybe some of these pieces are more important as you begin and they become less important over time
maybe some of these people pieces are actually not important at all and what you're really looking for is this piece and it's all about reading for the purpose that you're looking at that you're trying to
trying to figure out why am i reading this and what am i trying to get out of it yeah that's like you were saying i think that's where that triple a science in the classroom thing really as you click through the different
lenses that they have it really um accentuates how you're just highlighting just one set of the pieces in the article to focus on at a time right right well you can highlight them
all at the same time whoa yeah but then also recognize what's been taken away right like if you if you look i it would be really interesting and i haven't done this because i didn't
know about the aaas thing um but what i would be really interesting for me in beginning science classes is to have them highlight it all and figure out where all the white space
is like what was all the stuff that wasn't important at all let's try it right like right now what's the what's the piece of of you know was everything important or
were there things that really weren't and i think the more i was reading aaron's comment over here um i think you absolutely
want to try to normalize as much as possible in terms of um and i hate i hate norming don't get me wrong i'm sorry i'm a statistician and i don't like um the practice of norming because it
always brings up grades for me and that's like not a good practice at all um but the idea here of the people who are writing these things
are not perfect and they're never gonna be perfect and sometimes they look back at their own stuff and are horrified by it right like this kind of idea of like no this isn't something that everyone has
to have a good sense about and we all learn as we go is like actually important yeah look at that look at all that stuff that's not highlighted yeah and and of course i'm not going to
quickly say that it doesn't matter but it's interesting you know only maybe only maybe i'll say 25 to 30 percent of this article is maybe highlighted right right and that's the thing that i
think a lot of folks that i see with um with a lot of students they're reading every single sentence as if it's the most important thing when
in fact a lot of this you know as you get to the results it becomes more important right yeah yeah there's more highlighting with the results in this discussion and the conclusions almost anywhere else yep you're right
it's the densest the densest part here is in this results section right and and i would love to use that as a moment of just saying look
when we say skip to the results and discussion we may skip to the results of discussion because that's the most important part yeah literally yeah and maybe you go back then and even internally in the document
you think okay this results in section it's maybe referring to things up above and that's that's your clue to maybe go back deeper into the article and find out what they're talking about
right and that that piece of also skipping to the end skipping to the conclusions and then referring back is something that my students absolutely do not understand they don't
understand that you can do that they're like you can do that i'm like yeah yeah you could do that that's a lot yeah that actually sounds like a great a great introductory exercise right is like we're all going
to go to the end of the article we're going to find one thing in the results and conclusions section and then we're going to try to figure out where it came from right not going backwards in the article
right it's like um you know i i uh yeah i like what you're saying here chris in terms of uh you know you could look at for the what's really cool about this is you could look for the dances highlighting
and start to be like are there conclusions that we can make based on where this is um and that that's uh another whole set of analysis skills that you
get out of things like annotation that you're not going to get easily in any other way yeah that kind of goes to something that a lot of educators in all disciplines have been saying in their findings anatomically
anecdotally wow and talk um about this work you know and using it with students is that when students pre-read with annotation what that can really help them do is
understand where the students are focusing their attention in their reading and then that can shape what happens in the class right right as you come into the class as the as the teacher sort of empowered by
uh the record of the student's passage through the text and you can use that to shape what you're going to do in class right right and that it really um all of this goes to the point of helping
students feel like scholars right how is knowledge created how is knowledge co-created how is knowledge reflected um you know helping students feel like
scholars early on is really an important thing um in terms of helping them feel belonging and and what have you and so that idea of
like all of us are fallible um even if you've won a nobel prize you're still fallible which it was uh i wish i had saved the tweet
that um uh i can't remember her name um like i don't can't remember names at the moment um but all right you're really you're you're on the spot here aren't i aren't i awesome here um yeah it's just
it's just amazing so um well we all we all we don't have to be perfect i think you were just saying we all right wasn't i just saying that perfection is overrated i was i wasn't i think i was um okay
so let me get down to the end here because it's all it's all in chronological order uh it's francis or arnold there you go francis arnold within like uh like three weeks of winning the nobel
prize had to retract some papers um because they just weren't up to the level and i was like i wish that every nobel prize winner had
something like this where like absolutely like i won a nobel prize and i still make mistakes people that's just how it goes and that would
be just amazing to see even at the highest levels i was like that is such an awesome modeling of the behavior right there that i wish i had saved it
yeah while finding finding tweets it seems like it's gotten harder and harder although i didn't notice a new thing in the interface to the mobile twitter app now i don't know if you use twitter lists at all yeah but if you do
you can pin them and sort of oh no if you pin a list it then becomes like a swipe away in the navigation of your mobile device so you can pop right over to viewing the uh yes
that's a little like a little side segue into twitter yeah yeah i think anytime noble's in chemistry yeah nobles in chemistry tend to be real honest apparently
um so nobel laureates i should say um but yeah no i think that that is absolutely critical for folks to understand that this is this is a process you get better at it
as you do it so i mean that's science in a nutshell right right or at least the way it's supposed to be the iterative process yes well i see that we have reached the end of our scheduled time
we've also said so many different things that i can't even keep track of at all what in the world have we said what have we said fortunately there's a recording and we'll be able to come back to it we do have at least one person
chris chris uh from from nova um who said that it was valuable so we know at least one person was benefited from the conversation i know one person i'm thrilled i'm thrilled thank you one person at a time
i appreciate that but i would like to say that um i had a just a fantastic time here today i hope you did too i really really appreciate you coming um and our other guests as well karen of
course um and that heather was able to pop in was awesome i love that serendipity um and so is there anything that you'd like as a parting shot to leave us with before we go on with our busy days
you don't think about it you know i i would say um any time that we can revisit our practice and be reflective about it it's important and so using social annotation software
might be something you want to use but i think reflecting on it first and trying to find meaningful ways for you to use it is
is absolutely critical
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