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all right so i think we'll get started i'm your host franny french and i would like to welcome you all to liquid margins today to northern annotations social learning
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and canadian higher education and then today's wonderful guest unfortunately one of our wonderful guests was not able to make it and that's lillian hogan dorn she's the
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acting manager digital access and oer at ecampus ontario um we love ecampus ontario we're sorry she wasn't able to be here today and probably most likely definitely i guess
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have somebody from ecampus ontario on the show in the future um and we but we do have here today olga andreyevsky she's associate professor of history at
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trent university and fargo o'hagan he's the associate professor of psychology at trent university as well and our moderator today is nate angel
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and he's the director of marketing at hypothesis and with that i'm going to stop sharing my screen and turn it over to nate and nate if you'd like to reintroduce our guest and ask them if
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they have um anything they'd like to kick it off with thanks so much yeah thanks for getting us going uh frannie uh and it's really i'm really excited to be here and just a as a caveat like if you're not from
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canada it's okay we have a lot of canadians here our guests are canadian um and uh but if you're uh not from canada that's fine um in the audience um we will be talking
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about social annotation more broadly and so i'm sure it will apply across the border as well um if you happen to be in the united states or in some other country that would be great so as frannie said i'm nate uh and i
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joined here with my um colleagues from hypothesis for annie and then we've also got um aaron baker is um barker sorry aaron barker excuse me aaron uh is uh here and able to answer um
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technical questions that might come up so if you have those um feel free to put them in the chat because these these shows we tend to talk about the pedagogy and sort of the interesting human angles of social annotation more than the technical nitty-gritty and so if you
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have kind of more specific questions feel free to put them in the chat and someone like aaron um can answer we also have a few other uh hypothesis folks here um like uh i saw that laurie's here who
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uh is actually in canada herself and uh even though she works for hypothesis because we're a completely distributed organization on gina is also here so there's a whole bunch of people ready to answer your questions in the chat
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um if you want to if you have anything that we're not addressing uh in the conversation itself but then without further ado i'd like to um kind of switch over to um talk with our guests for a little while
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um and we'll have some time for questions and answers with the audience later but um to start off i was wondering olga if you might say a couple of words about um kind of your
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practice like what it is that you do um as an educator and then i'd love to know how you came to learn about social annotation and hypothesis um and how you first brought it into your work
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yeah i'm um a historian at trent university and uh it's for those of you there i i can see from the chat there are a whole bunch of people there from from from trent so i don't and from and from southern ontario who
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don't need an explanation of what trent university is but for those of you who don't know it's a small liberal arts college or university with uh with a history of emphasis on
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small group teaching especially in the the humanities and um so we um we our department in general and english department
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um we've been teaching for decades using the whole seminar system which is fantastic so there was always an emphasis right from the start um on on student inter
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on student interaction and participation and and all of that um i stumbled into hypothesis during one of the workshops that was being offered um at the beginning of the pandemic when
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we were all trying to figure out how we were going to teach in this in this new world of remote remote and online teaching and in particular it was a course um being offered by brent bellamy from the
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english department who was using hi who who was part of the first pilot program and was using it in in his course and there was no discussion or emphasis on hypothesis but
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the minute i saw it i was really really really interested because um one of the things uh that i try to do in in my teaching in general is to uh shift
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the emphasis to um social social learning i teach um soviet history i teach um uh and and uh uh in particular course on on
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um history of the soviet union and then a fourth year course i'm teaching this year on the second world war and the soviet union and that's a seminar course so there are no lectures
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and that's where i'm using hypothesis because it's an intensive reading and discussion course and um i've been it's a year-long course so i've had the luxury of being able to use the program
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for an entire year um and i've made some small accommodations uh but i i told my students right away that this is an experiment
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and i've been watching it and sort of making a few adjustments as as i've said um along the way and i haven't used it in my third year course it's a semester-long course um but the fourth year course really
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lent itself well to uh to to to this and um it's hard for me to say on the basis of one year how successful it is i will say my
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students are fantastic and i don't know if they were they were going to be fantastic no matter what or the degree to which you know hypothesis has kind of drawn them in uh even further into
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uh into the into the course and i'll i'll let fergal speak uh i don't want to monopolize all the time but i will say the thing that surprised me is um the way it and this was unanticipated
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the way in which it keeps students engaged with each other outside of that weekly slot when we're together so um it's an it's i have two groups
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they're really nice students um but i get the sense that you know it's it's really helped them uh engage uh as a as a community um and uh
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you know so so the the the experience i've had so far small not a big sample i don't want to draw too many conclusions from it but um i see a lot of positives that would make me
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want to continue using the program yeah that's really interesting to hear and that that idea of building community around reading um i think is really that's something that we are sort of talk about a lot and are really interested in
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understanding how that happens in different contexts so um love to talk about that more during the show but yeah let's let me ask sort of the same question to fergal um in a sense first how did you come to learn about social annotation and start
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using it but also if you wanted to expand on anything that olga had uh introduced us to about trent and kind of what your classes are like especially during these pandemic times that would be interesting to hear as
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well yeah well um i thought likewise uh i stumbled upon it by by chance kind of uh i came on board as the acting director
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of trent online um last summer and it was i i've been you know uh the idea of social learning is really interesting because my team has been teaching me so much
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about online learning and uh like olga i went through the professional development training last summer uh picked up a lot from that
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but my introduction to hypothesis was actually when we were um maureen glenn who's our senior e-learning designer uh has been organizing our pilot and i was introduced to it at a meeting that
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where we were meeting with some of the faculty who were using it and they started talking about it and i thought this is really neat i know where i could use this
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and so i incorporated it into my fourth year seminar course which is a team based uh structure uh like olga
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our courses our courses in psych um sort of lower years tend to be larger uh than than the humanities but by fourth year we're uh you know our seminar courses are you
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know 20 to 25 sort of thing uh so a way and mine is structured on a team has a team structure to it so students work in teams of five
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and the task that they have uh to go to go about is basically doing like sort of layered group work that eventually builds um the course is
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called models of self-control so it's about building um explanatory models for why people behave as they do and applying those models to the development of programs
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and so the students start reading papers and extracting um behavioral outcomes but you know determinants of behavior so the things that sort of influence our
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behavior in terms of our internal experiences and things in the environment and i thought hypothesis would be a perfect tool for them to start to get
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access to those those things through their readings and to build start to build conversations and um so that's that's how i came to it and that's you
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know sort of where i saw it fitting into my course and uh it's been i i i would say like i've taught that course in a different format
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um a number of times previously and hypothesis has been uh a really nice feature that i will definitely continue with when we go back to face-to-face teaching
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with uh with that course like it's a it's a it's a must have now i think for me yeah wow that's that's a strong strong testimonial um and i'm curious about just to follow
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up a little bit on what you said there about this idea of continuing um social annotation in the face-to-face environment because i think a lot of people like y'all did sort of end up learning about and starting to use hypothesis during the
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pandemic when things moved to remote and yet can you say more about how you would how you would think about using it when teaching is fully face to face yeah or i mean i i want to hear from
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olga too but i thought just because you had just said that for goal you might have a follow-up either way so the course uh yeah so
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the the i've i've i've also used i'm using microsoft teams to organize the teamwork which isn't which is another thing i'm going to continue with or something like that um
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and i had prior to hypothesis i had been using discussion boards which i've found to be like you know there are ways of using them i guess that are they're helpful but
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it was you know it was in previous iterations of the course it was it was kind of getting to you know like post once reply twice kind of thing and getting very i don't know
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like just wrote and and uninteresting for students um and so with hypothesis what i find i can do is not turn the the students loose into
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the course but it's like okay so listen gang this is what you need to be looking for in these papers because this is what you're going to need for your models go find it all right take
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a couple of days on your own reading through them and then flip it to um you know group public view and then start talking about it between yourselves right as to what you
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can use and um i found that their like the depth of reading in in the papers has generally been
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better much better um where you know they i mean they have that direction as to where they need to be going with it but they'll be you know in their initial reads you can see where they're annotating oh okay so this
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is something we need to look at determinant they'll be defining things outcome expectancy what does that mean right and uh and then i mean as they get more familiar and sophisticated with it
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though there's the the sophistication of their their annotations uh increases as well and so uh it's just a better way
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it is just a better way of doing it versus um the previous method i was using in the course so we'll go yeah and i and and i'll give you a chance here to
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go right in that same direction but um this idea of how the discussion forum untethered to the text can be a sort of like less useful way to have that kind of discussion but when you anchor the discussion inside the text it
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allows for new kinds of possibilities so olga do you also think of using uh social annotation after remote teaching is a past oh yeah no it's uh absolutely i mean my goal in the course
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is to get students to un to read text as interpretation and um it's it's what i did before the pandemic it's what i'll do after the pandemic
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and actually having them go through the text together looking for an argument uh looking for an interpretation is really really important and and the best students will always
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you know the quit their students will get that immediately but there are other students for whom it takes a a really long time and this is a way of speeding speeding up the process because they see the other students
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uh engaging in that kind of of discussion i mean the other thing i'd say um is that uh in my fourth year course on the soviet union in the second world war i have a mix of students who've had some
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soviet history before and students who have had no soviet history before and some students who are real military buffs so they know all sorts of things that that i don't even know and what what's
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fabulous is that the students who've had haven't had soviet history can say what's that and then without having me to come in as the authority another student who's had some
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has some familiarity can jump in and say well that's what it is or somebody could just even look it up from wikipedia and put in a a definition and um so
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so that's a whole different dimension of of what they get to do that would be lost uh in a in the face-to-face of a classroom so by the time they we get to discuss this as a whole group
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together in a seminar um they've already done quite a bit of learning yeah and that's a pattern that we've heard before where it's um when you do come together for synchronous discussion whether that's
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on zoom or or maybe live face to face um when we can do that uh you know having the socially annotated reading power and then form that then later group discussion can can really change the game quite a bit
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you know i i see folks in the chat getting frustrated as they often do in these shows because you know we're talking about kind of high falutin ideas here um and they they're still like but wait how does it work
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um and so i can understand that um and we have other ways for them to learn how you know the nitty-gritty of how it works but i'm wondering um olga you had talked before about maybe being more specific about how you
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actually orchestrate the use of it in your course and you've talked you mentioned a couple of things already about how you use it but like so um exactly what kinds of readings are you assigning are they
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are they pdfs or web articles or um and then what is are there certain assignments how do you um ask the students to get involved in the annotation specifically yeah i i saw that somebody asked a
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question becky rudd asked if if the if if hypothesis is used for all course readings i made a decision uh in before the course started that i would use it every single week
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because i didn't want them sort of thinking oh is this the week we have to do it oh great we don't have to do it you know it i i wanted them to get into a rhythm and a routine every once in a while i will um uh i
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will just say you don't have to annotate this one but annotate this one and give them a little bit of a of a break that way but it's been pretty much routine i use pdfs um i i put them on google drive and
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then um use the web tool link uh so that they can't do the course readings without going to hypothesis um so uh it's it's it's pretty
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straightforward for for for them in in in that regard um sorry i miss a question no i think i think that that was good on um similar to fergal so um what kinds of
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readings how do you how do you get them in front of students and you talk you already did mention a little bit about how you you know make the assignment but compared to say a discussion forum assignment like you were talking about how is it that you get students to like
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see the annotation as an active part of the course well i sign a participation grade so it's really well and this is this is um kind of standard for uh for
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seminar courses in our university 25 of their final grade is seminar discussion and participation and um one of the attractions for me initially of hypothesis was this was yet another way to allow
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students who maybe don't like to speak up in a discussion um in a room full of people who might feel a lot more comfortable just
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being able to you know engage in in a different way um and over a period of time too because they can walk away from it and come back we use blackboard at trent so um that's how that's the
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the gateway to posting all of this stuff yeah and for gold do you want to go down that same road i saw you on mute for a second there uh yeah so i mean i can
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share what it looks like nate if that would be great yeah if you want to try sharing your screen and give people a little tour that would be great and then they'll have a little bit of visual cues about how it works
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um so i've got a couple of uh i'm just going to share this so that's our campus ah looks icy it this is a this is last week so it's getting better
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okay uh that's spring in canada that is yeah uh so the team's site um is set up so that
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the way the course is structured there are groups assigned to different behavioral intervention targets
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so this year there's a group assigned to reducing single-use plastics one assigned to a stress reduction among clients at a community health center
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related to covid and there's so there's five of these groups and they're set up on uh teams to be able to work back and forth um so a lot of their work starts there
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and then uh where are we here i where is my you're nimbly moving around though i'm impressed by your screen sharing all
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right um i just wanted to find my screen share for my um that's not it that's my email looks like you got some email to answer i do
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it's it's a continual battle um i'm just trying to find my browser yeah that's right while you while you're looking for that i'll take the pressure off too and um so um
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one thing that i think both of you might address is if how you you're this is coming from the audience who friends of francesco uh asked this question about if you actually seed readings
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with your own annotations or maybe you participate in the discussion after the students have gotten going uh so i do i do see the readings and um
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[Music] and their annotations and so what i've been doing is like all guys so i post the the readings go into a google drive and then a link is set up
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to uh our learning management system site on blackboard the students access the readings through blackboard um so when i click on them you know there are when they click on
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them it's a direct link to the reading and they get into their annotation and then i'm able to follow in behind them and comment on the papers um i see it there now
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comment on the papers and um so what i typically do if you can see that is um i'll make a page note on the paper uh so this is for our single use
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plastics group uh and here the the the researchers were looking at you know um uh figuring out determinants of behavior for for plastic
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um and use and uh my comment here is you know this looks like a nice three-step step study and looking at any ecological plot product marketing um and then you know i sort of i make
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orienting comments um for them and then as you can see and i'm not gonna reveal here because it's it's my students uh you can see there's 25 annotations in this paper
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um our the annotations are ranging from uh seven up to like nine there were 95 in one paper
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and they'll be of sort of a variety of levels of engagement uh with the students some of the some of them will be going in and defining a term uh some of them will
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be you know identifying a particular intervention method uh as something that they might consider for their intervention program and then you start to see the
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conversation build on that where the other members will go in and they'll add thoughts um and as i as i said like one thing that i'm noticing over
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the course of the term is the depth of annotations not and not not in all groups i wouldn't say that but the depth of thought that go that's going into the annotations is is increasing
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um and then like with with uh the annotations i uh assign ten there's a ten percent ten percent of the grade is is for the annotations
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which is you know there's there are other things that that go into the the grade but the in terms of you know the direct participation i look at the social annotation as a proxy for that
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um but it's not when i talk to the students about their annotations it's not like oh how many did i do enough or how many do well it started they
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started of course they always how many do you want right um and then of course i give them some obscure answer that doesn't really answer that but sort of nudges them along to to find their way
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and then um uh but now it's like the end they need they want the annotations they they find the annotations so helpful because the next step in the process is writing
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article summaries for an annotated bibliography and they you know they're telling me that oh well i just go to my annotations and i just build my article summary based on that
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and so that's how it looks in the in in the course and on you know i've just got it set up so that uh there's links in blackboard
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that take you take them to their papers papers are in in these folders folders have the links and then uh and then that takes the links take
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take uh take them in yeah so that's that makes total sense um and thank you you addressed a couple of things that folks in the chat were asking about about grading and so forth and i i'm interested in this idea of
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keeping the number of required annotations sort of ambiguous i've heard gardner campbell if you know him a professor of english olga might know him down at um in virginia uh has long made the case
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that being less specific about what you want students to to to give back um can kind of force them to find their own way like you were saying uh for gold um and just as a clarification note for
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folks you saw fergal show off a page note that he had made so the difference between annotations and page notes is that the page note is sort of like a note on the document as a whole whereas the annotations are anchored in specific
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highlights uh you know in the text itself and so you know fergus obviously using the page notes there as this sort of general introductory annotation on the document as a whole that makes sense and so all goes back to you um
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do you also have a practice where you um pre-seed the um the readings with your own annotations um to kind of spark the students off no i
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don't um what i what i do is i've i've told them all along um that there's a way to read history so um what's crucial is identifying the
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main argument talking about or identifying sources and evidence talking about approach and all of that i i want them to sort of train themselves to think of certain
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questions whenever they read so i don't go in i actually don't participate in in uh in in their discussions on hypothesis one of the things i mean this is something
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um for me to think about for the future um if a class meets at four four o'clock they're often working on hypothesis at three o'clock so uh in the future what i would do is
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um have a cutoff period um say two o'clock or something so that i could actually go and look at the comments before before the class but i have two groups so um the the hypothesis groups can't be
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too large um and uh because then otherwise otherwise students find that they have nothing to say especially if they're late to to the whole thing um
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and but i do make them both groups available and i keep them up because one of the things we keep doing is going back and talking about readings we've done earlier in the year and making comparisons
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and and all of that and the notes are there for them all year long to um to look at and i think that's really useful for them as a kind of memory prompt yeah that that makes sense where and so you're actually finding that students
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are coming back to the same reading and maybe annotating for a second round something um i don't think they're annotating uh the second time around but they're going back and looking at it and i know that the students in
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in one group are really curious about the students and the other groups so they are reading each other's comments so there's learning going on in in in that way i mean the other thing is that you know beyond the questions that
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i pose for them that they should be asking every time students are also commenting on things they find really interesting and um for me that's been a wonderful experience because
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they will sometimes take the whole discussion in a direction in which i hadn't anticipated and we end up talking about something that's important something that they see
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um that maybe i didn't see uh in the same way um so there's a lot of learning going on a lot of social learning going on yeah i'm sorry that's that's awesome to hear on fergal i think i interrupted you
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you unmuted there um yeah i'm just going to say i i do go in and um i ha i do have a presence in their annotations so
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if i'm working through the annotations and more so i'd say at this at the start of the term or earlier in the term um but you know i will comment on and i i don't really comment i ask
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questions of them um to to orient them um towards certain things i think you know maybe they're not picking up on or things that they
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need to follow up with in this course each of the groups are assigned a professional advisor who works in the field and
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so i'll suggest to them that they follow up with their professional advisor to see how relevant this is to the context uh that they're they're developing their programs in
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um yeah and both of you are hitting on something that i think is really um crucial i mean obviously you're you're talking about relatively advanced courses here these are these don't sound like introductory courses right and they're relatively
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small i'm guessing how frugal how big how big is your class in terms of students so i have 23. okay that's a pretty small site course at trent yeah and olga how large is your class i
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have 25 students but i've broken them up into two seminar groups okay right so kind of split them in half right so this but um one of the things i wanted to draw out was um i see in both of your practices here
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that um part of what the reading and the annotated reading is doing is helping set up students for writing and i think that's there's a really interesting connection right between how we read
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and how we can empower that so that it informs our writing i'm wondering if that resonates with you as if you've seen a change or into practices around uh writing i mean frugal you already mentioned how they're they're using their
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annotations and their summaries yeah and what like sorry i'll jump in because uh i tell them right at the start there is no wasted work in this course
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if you want to write if you want to develop a solid program and and document it this is the process through which you would go and so their
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annotations build their article summaries their article summaries build their annotated bibliographies which build their visualized models um and all of the
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the work products that they need to go into a great final uh paper and and so the you know so the social annotation
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really outs the cognitive and social process that goes on um in in developing their you know writing as thinking over time um
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it it just it makes it explicit for them i'm not sure how many of them kind of cop onto that but uh i you know i'm sure they they do but um they do recognize that
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the value of it yeah um yeah i in this course and in my fourth year course they write histographical essays so they're always in every essay they're comparing interpretations
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so the more they're discussing interpretation as interpretation in in hypothesis um the more they can you know conceptualize writing an essay that
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compares in interpretations so um yeah again i it would be curious for me to see over a couple of years um whether there's a noticeable
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where the uh there's a noticeable sort of uh advance in their in their in their writing and and thinking um i i've been telling myself i just have a really exceptional group this year
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sometimes it might be the special class right who knows what the special ingredients are or maybe the pandemic has made everyone a better student i don't know that would be hard to believe in these circumstances you know another thing that i'm really
00:35:33
noticing we've been sort of answering a lot of the questions that have come up in the chat along the way um so if there are other questions folks please feel free to put them in the chat if you feel like we haven't addressed them yet but the other thing i'm really noticing in both your work especially in years frugal
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but also an ogle is olga's is that you're having these students read i'll call it real works right you're not having them read some textbook that summarizes something these are real journal articles
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and real you know um you know primary and secretary sources um that would they would they would use in their scholarly or professional lives moving forward and so in a way they're practicing the kinds of skills
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that they would need to advance either academically or professionally to go to that next level um and i'm kind of um i'm inspired to see how uh your you know maybe this practice of
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annotation can lead us away from having folks spend a lot of time with i don't want to say dumb down texts but texts that that don't come from the real world and touch on their real
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you know professional and and scholarly futures if you will and so i'm wondering olga if you found that um in your work it does seem like you have folks focused on what i'm calling these real texts
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oh yeah and and by the end of the year um one of our goals is to have have them understand what the state of research is that is they've read the major works um and and they've
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and what's really fun is they get to read historians who violently disagree with each other and um and it really prepares them well for for for graduate school it's a it's a good
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sort of bridging um class and and so so yeah that's that's the way i've always taught it and and this just kind of adds another another dimension
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yeah and fergo yours i mean it almost seems like your class is like specifically preparing them for professional activity right yeah so the way i've set it up in contrast to prior offerings which
00:37:38
were more i say sort of more theoretically oriented uh this was you know putting theory into action like purposing it
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and so i i set the course up as a consultancy and the students are consultants in training and they they start with scenarios
00:38:04
um relating to behavior change you know as i mentioned a couple of them there reducing single-use plastics so that group is connected to their professional advisor is the executive director of peterborough greenup which is the
00:38:18
community organization that is associated with everything environmental in town and so they meet with their community advisor they their task then is to go back into
00:38:30
the literature look to see what's known about the um behavior in question and its determinants and then
00:38:41
bring that into a a model first of all that identifies you know why this problem is happening and then secondly a model of change which identifies what targets their
00:38:54
what what things we might target uh to change that behavior and then in the final phase um sorry i think my notifications are going off here it's final phase um then they um
00:39:06
uh write up a program based on that and it's uh it's applied in that way but this would be like i would like to see if i had a student coming in a graduate
00:39:19
student to supervise who was coming in with this kind of a background they they would have a foot up so i think both you know practice professional practice as well as
00:39:32
as advanced studies um this kind of having this kind of background would be beneficial for them and um and you know having used the social annotation through the process
00:39:44
uh lets them see what good process is that makes total sense i'm really i'm impressed by how it seems to be working out for you and i'll just mention here and i'll ask granny to put a link in the chat um to kind of get at this idea that
00:39:58
olga brought up of it would be interesting to see how this affects student writing over time um there's a really vibrant research project going on that just got kicked off this year at indiana university it's in kind of
00:40:10
introductory composition in english classes but it's specifically investigating this question of the degree to which social annotation can have an effect on kind of reading and writing practices over time um it's a multi a multi-year study
00:40:23
actually so that um we can put a link in to their uh into the chat um for folks so there will be new data coming out about that soon um so i know uh i know fergal at least has something that he needs to get to coming
00:40:35
up there was um one uh last question that i saw come through in the chat that i thought we might address just as a sort of uh farewell so um so if you want to add on anything else that you want to say um as we're leaving
00:40:47
too um as you answered this question that i'll pose to you that would be great um and then we can close it up so everyone can get on to their next meeting um so uh uh the annotations themselves can
00:40:59
kind of serve as scholarly objects right um and we talked about students using them in their writing and francisco's asked if um you have or have seen the students actually refer back to and linked to
00:41:12
annotations they've made in their writing uh you know in their writing other writing in the course like do they serve do the annotations themselves serve as sort of primary scholarly objects for them in their further writing
00:41:24
you want to uh you want to try that one olga yeah um i haven't um students do talk about each other's comments in discussions so in that respect it does enter into into
00:41:40
the the seminar itself um i'm trying to imagine how i might do that um it's uh it's still a new world for me so i'm just filling it out
00:41:52
i i see it in so in their article summaries um the you know the first bit of it is is a summary of the research and uh then the the wrap up is a critical
00:42:07
evaluation of the study and i see i see the annotations coming through in in that part of their article summaries where you can see
00:42:19
how you know things that they've talked about in annotating the papers then um are expressed in the in the article summary great well this has been such a great conversation um so much so uh so much to unpack uh from
00:42:32
everything that you've shared um and this this has been recorded and we'll be sharing it out it'll probably be up on the site um by monday uh so if anyone wants to to review it we'll we'll be sharing that out and if you've uh registered you'll
00:42:45
get a notification that it's up um i really want to thank fergal and olga for being here today um i really appreciate um you're spending the time with us to share your practice this is super interesting uh for me and
00:42:58
i'm sure it was for the audience too thank you olga thank you it was so great to have you here and thank you fergal thanks nathan franio yeah thank you so much i'd
00:43:10
just like to say thank you to both of you so again thank you for coming to liquid margins today and we will see you next time
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