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foreign [Music] welcome to Red reality tonight we have a guest from all the way from Israel who has been who had a lecture here the
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other day where he was talking about the situation in israel-palestine Oliver here is with me and welcome girian thank you for coming thank you so much for having me I'm so happy to be here a trip
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five years in the making finally happening absolutely absolutely in the in an old dream of mine just the other day you had the lecture in um which I recommend it's on some Stern
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it's on YouTube so this is like a follow-up episode of where we we dig in and see what's going on and investigating your life I saw that you were drafted in the Israeli military
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when you were how old were you like 17 18. and you were working for the Israeli Army Radio and uh you have noted that at the time you didn't really realize that uh you
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know you thought Israel was a good State and was doing the best they could considering the situation and so on but that changed over time when I was brought up in Israel in the
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50s in the 60s it was a very young country most of our parents were Holocaust Survivors the atmosphere was very heavy atmosphere
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and education and media was nothing but a very massive brainwashed system to recruit all of us to the zionistic dream to the zionistic project
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and we all of us believed in the in the zionistic project and I was really I always say I was really a good boy Tel Aviv I I followed the rules I followed what I was told
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namely that we the Jews are the David the Arabs are the goliads we had the weak ones they are the strong ones we are the just ones they are the evil ones
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they have only one thing in their mind they the Palestinians and this is to kick all of us into the ocean they were born to kill all those things we got almost with the
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milk of our mothers so horrible to think that it is with the force that the Europe European Jews came in and and other Jews you know the the nakpan was 47 48 like the horrible overbearing
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force that was brought on the Palestinian people and and you were brought up with this myth that uh you were the weak ones terrible I tell you more than this uh I think I heard the
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word nakba only when I was 20 the first time in my life or at my twenties oh wow nobody spoke about it nobody told me now we saw those ruins along the roads the
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very few ruins that they didn't totally erase of the 400 over 400 Palestinian Villages that they destroyed and expelled their inhabitants
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and I never asked what are those ruins where are the owners why did they leave those questions were not even in the my mindset
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and it really took many years until I woke up and opened my eyes what was it like what were you told what uh how how you came to possess the territory and
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in Israel where it stands are you talking about the 48 territories or the 67 like the 48 territories were you thought anything about it like yes we taught we
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were taught that this is our land the Arab states tried to invade those lands and prevent us of living in peace are under our
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figs and and and wines and sit peacefully in our lands we were told that a people without land came to a land without people
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this is what we were told we didn't know anything about the Palestinian people living in Palestine for decades for Generations they were just
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transparent and so like for you working in in the Army and Reporting where were you like stationed were you in uh in in in in next to Tel Aviv I mean in
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Palestinian Jaffa which is now part of Tel Aviv I never thought about what's going on around me I don't think I've ever met a Palestinian before I was 20 or 25 or
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whatever oh wow and was there like a moment for you during those years where you where the mythology of you know that had been imprinted and you started to shake a little no it was really when I started to work
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as a journalist in Harris in the late 80s which was when I was already in my 30s when a friend told me let's go to see some
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story about a woman who lost all her olive trees because the Israeli Army had uprooted them I say let's go and this was my first meeting with the
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evilness of the occupation and then few weeks later there was something else I went to see in the West Bank and gradually it it hit my mind
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that the biggest story of Israel is not being told at all and there gradually I decided to dedicate my career to cover the occupation people are wrong
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in Israel because they think I'm covering the Palestinians not at all I'm covering what we are doing to them I'm covering the occupation not the Palestinians
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I am interested in what we are doing to them I do it as an Israeli I come from Israel I go back to Israel I never lived left Israel I come there as an Israeli to document
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our crimes that's my goal and through harats the paper yes that you published a lot of stories about what was going on how was that met in Israel look I have a column called The Twilight
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Zone which goes on now along 35 years once a week I go at least once a week I go to the occupied territories until 16 years ago it included gas
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included Gaza in the last 16 years I cannot go to Gaza anymore so at least once a week I go to the occupied territories and come back with a story about another victim of the occupation would it be a child which was
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who was short would it be land which was confiscated would it be a farmer who was beaten by settlers would it be a administrative that they knew who sits for months and years without trial every
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week a story a human story about another crime so after so many years it's I think thousands of stories thousands of stories sure and are people like resisting resistant
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to that do they call I I read that you you have been called a propagandist of Hamas by your political uh opponents for people who don't like what you're saying so so is that like a sentiment that
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seared with many Israelis nobody likes to read bad things about himself yeah nobody likes to look at the mirror and see a very ugly face from the mirror
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people try to avoid it and when I try to do it obviously it creates a lot of resistance against me even hatred
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but I keep on doing it I have no idea if it had ever any effect only history will judge it's a very accumulative accumulative
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process in which you keep on telling the stories no matter what and most people wouldn't read it but they know it's there and they see it every Friday in the newspaper that they read even if they
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don't read it they see the headlines they see the photos something tells them listen there is a reality that you know nothing about it there is a reality which is a criminal reality a
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very tragic reality you told the story in subnar versus God on the other other day you were talking about two different villages on the West Bank One Jewish settler Village and then
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an old Palestinian Village and you're saying how ostensibly these Israeli people should have the same rights but that's not how it is in reality this may prove that the fact that the
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occupation is not temporary it lasting for so many years that's the proof that the Israel is an apartheid state because if you go and see two Villages any two Villages I didn't speak about
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specific to Villages any two villages in the West Bank One Jewish one Palestinian one have all the results resources and all the rights the other has no resources and no rights
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how else can you call it if not apartheid it could have been not aparted if it would have seemed to be temporary but after 56 years without any intention
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to put an end to it and Israel is and no intention to put an end to it how else can you call it that's apartheid um what it sounds like is that a lot of the
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Israeli civilians the the population has had no actual like contact with the Palestinians from your experience actually being in contact with Palestinians uh what is
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their approach to you and like in general do you feel uh like do they are they pleased that you are yourself an Israeli
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and actually representing them in matters relating to the occupation no I don't think they feel that I'm representing them because most of the people that they come to visit are
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Grassroots they hardly know who I am it's not politicians it's not the activists it's poor people a farmer here A Refugee there
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and a driver there but they and the May and More Than This their children are are quite shocked to see me
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in many cases I am the only Israeli they've ever seen who is not armed who doesn't wear uniform who doesn't bark at them who comes to listen to them not to
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tell them anything just to listen to them I hate even one case in which Palestinian children ask me for my ID because they wouldn't believe that I'm Jewish Israeli they said it cannot be
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there are no Jews who speak like you there are no Jews who come to listen to us so in this for them it's it's it's an entire shock for for for the population
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the fact that there are other Israelis and we are so few how many Israelis do it almost nothing is for them and therefore they are always so warm
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you know I'm always shocked I'm coming to homes to parents who lost their baby a day before two days before by soldiers of my people by soldiers of
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my state and I'm always shocked again and again about your spirits Hospitality the tolerance and the wombs that they reflect toward me because
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would a Palestinian come to a Jewish family after a terror attacked or as it's called they would kick him out they will not talk to a Palestinians they might have even I don't know what
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Lynch him and here for 35 years I was never kicked out maybe once in Gaza maybe once in 35 years in which they didn't accept me they they were not willing
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to talk to me and to tell me the story of of their victim and that's so touching again and again there's one thing we were talking about before we went alive that people in Israel seem to
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like the common people that don't really mind much what's going on they don't seem to want to pay attention they disassociate from it don't want to hear about it and so on and I had an experience where we were interviewing a Palestinian refugee in Iceland and I had
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known like intellectually about the plight of Palestinians but when I met one a young Palestinian man and he told me how he lost his parents you know in a bombing attack in Gaza and lost a brother and so on it really hits home
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but but this is the situation in Israel like people people don't realize what's going on they don't want to know about it not only this they are in denial and the Israeli media is helping them to
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be in denial you tell them the story that you just told me and they immediately react will be where his parents terrorists are you sure they
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didn't have weapons at home or explosive materials at home immediately they will attack you only to protect themselves from taking any responsibility for the crimes and that's even harder because
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the Israeli media is building it up the Israeli media is the biggest collaborator with the occupation and they don't do it because of ideology they do it only because of commercial
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considerations they want to keep their viewers or to keep the readers and they know they don't want to hear anything about it so they are doing anything possible to please them so any I wrote
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two weeks ago there was a baby of two and a half years who was shot in his head two and a half years shot dead in Navy Salah in a village in the West Bank two and a half years old he was shot dead in
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front of his father who was injured as well they did nothing the Israeli media accepted fire it hardly mentioned it now you can imagine yourself if a
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Palestinian would have shot a Jewish baby the whole world would have known about it it would be headlines all over the world and in Israel they would just speak about those barbarians who shoot
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babies and the Israeli media is collaborating with this horrible reality and and now like people are worried that netanyahu's Administration and and the right wing
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and the settlers you know I've seen a lot of footage of like very aggressive settlers they're kicking people out of their homes and just taking them over and and some of these most like
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right-wing people seem to be completely like self-righteous in this respect just kicking people out of their homes taking it over waving the flag you know is are you concerned about the situation in
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Israel about the developments we never hate it like this it's not only it's the most right-wing fascist government Israel head this goes without saying
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but under this government the settlers allowed themselves to act as never before those are really barbaric malicious
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what they are doing is what we call pogroms which is exactly what the Russians and the Ukrainian did to Jewish villages in east Europe and Russia in
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Ukraine burning homes burning cars burning any agriculture facilities burning fields showing stones at Windows only last week
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there were 35 programs in 35 different villages in the West Bank no one was arrested but not even one single person was erected it's all documented there
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everyone has accelerant and every Palestinian takes footage no one was arrested which means the Israeli government tells those
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gangsters please go on we will not do anything to you and in many ways they even encourage them to do so that's a reality that we never faced before 35
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just in last week in 35 different villages it's horrible yeah but this is like a somehow a great tragedy of history that you know what happened to the Jewish
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people with the under with the Nazis and then they seem to be you know or not them but Israel as a state is doing this to another set of people I'm I'm wondering like don't these don't
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the scientists uh the scientists and and the religious Jews in Israel isn't isn't this supposed to be like in all ways against their own religion no because our religion is
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of Jewish Supremacy and our religion is that what we are allowed to do nobody is allowed to do our religion is that we are the chosen people
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and our religion is as the late School the marriage phrase did they after the Holocaust the Jews have the right to do whatever they do and I wouldn't like to compare it yet to
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the Nazis it's still far far away from what the Nazis did but it's very comparable to the early 30s no doubt about it
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we are very far from the 40s but we are very close to the early 30s and yes the lesson for the Jews most of the Jews in Israel the lesson for the Holocaust could be
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one of two or never do what people have done to you or after what happened to you you can only live on your sword you can only
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live on your power and you have to write to go crazy as long as you feel that you're protecting yourself and Israel chose long time ago the second way the second
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pass I want to speak a little bit about the like the liberal democracies in the Western World you know do you feel that they are enabling this Behavior unfortunately yes
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I think that the fact that Israel is still the darling of the West the fact that Israel is capable to paralyze the West in labeling any criticism on Israel as
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anti-semitism look what's going on in Europe it's unbelievable how Israel manipulates Europe not only Germany not only Germany
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all over Europe people cannot dare to criticize Israel because immediately they are labeled as anti-semites and the fact that Israel is still the
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darling of the West you know the other day I was at the national day or the Flag Day of Sweden at the Swedish residence the Swedish ambassador's residence in Tel Aviv and there were
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hundreds of guests very successful evening and there was a minister one of the right-wing ministers from the government as as usual and then she read her text which was written by the foreign Ministry and then
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she said Israel in Sweden are sharing the same values and someone whispered on my ear she insulted now 80 percent of the sweets
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the world continued to to a treat Israel as if it's a liberal democracy which obeys to the international law which obeys to all the international
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institutions resolutions which is part of the civilizer so-called civilized West and that's a huge lie and we have to call this Bluff
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because Israel does not share values with the West Israel does not follow resolutions of the International Community by tens and by dozens and obviously Israel is violating the
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international law on a daily basis this cannot be part of the West this shouldn't be part of the West and the West should recognize it and realize it but in our world world interests come
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before anything else and the interest is to continue to hug Israel unfortunately so by the way it's very unfortunate for Israel because this attitude corrupts Israel because when Israel sings it can do
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whatever it wants and it will always it will never pay any price look at Russia two weeks in in Premiere and there were sanctions
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57 years of brutal occupation and even mentioning sanctions is almost criminalized in most of you West European countries you cannot speak about it even
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luckily I don't think this is not as strong here in Iceland I I've never heard anybody uh here call someone on anti-semite for criticizing the occupation but uh it it seems to have been very effective in Europe especially
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you you mentioned that in your lecture that it's not as effective in in the United States but in Europe like this is used a lot and like we saw Jeremy corbyn uh the former leader of the labor party he was essentially purged from the party
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on the on the premise that he was an anti-semite when when that was absolutely not true there was nothing to that absolutely so and this starts to become a problem of film speech in Europe not
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only a problem if is of Israel and Palestine but also Europeans should ask themselves are we ready to be manipulated like this are we ready to
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give up our freedom of speech for all kind of fake consequences and fake terminology there is not only the right there is the
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duty of Any Man of conscious and women of conscious to criticize the occupation to stand against it and to act against it and it has nothing to do with anti-Semitism nothing
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mm-hmm you have proposed would you call the one state solution as opposed to this two-state solution uh what is the essence of of that solution where like
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uh does it lie look originally the two-state solution is the most reasonable solution two people share one piece of State they don't get along together they have
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different ideas about how should it look let's separate them Joy line and separate share the land and say this will be a Jewish State this will be a
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Palestinian state sounds very reason the only problem is that in the last 57 years Israel did anything possible to avoid to destroy this
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solution namely by settling over half a million Jewish settlers in the West Bank and another two hundred thousand two hundred fifty thousand settlers in East Jerusalem all together over 700 000
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settlers they will never be removed and if they will never be removed there is no viable Palestinian State cannot be and we can continue to dream about this
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Impossible Dream of two-state solution I think many do it in a very cynical way like the EU and the United States they know it will never happen but they continue to talk about it because by
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this they are clean they're conscious they say here we have a solution it's on the Shelf we just have to take it and use it and implement it one day we'll do it but they know the truth it's a lie
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and instead of continuing speaking about a solution which on the ground cannot be implemented by all means not I thought mainly after two visits in
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South Africa that we should start to think the unthinkable and to think about the only solution which is left ever since 67 it is a one state
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it's not that we have to create the one state the West Bank is part of Israel if you like it if you don't Gaza is under the control of Israel it's a biggest cage in the world under the
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Israeli control total Israeli control if you like it or not it is a one state the only problem is the regime it's not a democracy it is an apartheid state there is no equality whatsoever there
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are two peoples one people share all their rights the other one doesn't have any rights whatsoever including even not citizenship the Palestinians are maybe the only peoples in the world who don't have
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citizenship of any country nothing and these are people living in in parts of the West Bank or bank or territories that Israel has taken that are in the territories and they don't even have citizenship all people in the biggest
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jail in the world namely the the Gaza Strip who don't have any citizenship even not the citizenship the North Korea and have a citizenship the Palestinians don't even have a citizenship is this
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acceptable in the year 2023 is this acceptable by the state that Europe and the United States is supporting and hugging and financing and arming so much
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so that's the question then it leads you only to one conclusion we have to change the discourse and the discourse must be from now on not settlements not borders because this leads soil nowhere we have
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to start to talk about equal rights equal rights between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean for all the people who live on the Israeli rule have you uh felt any support from like
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Israeli people for this one stage solution it's a very painful process for most of these ways because this means the end of the dream of a Jewish state and I understand people who have brought
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up under this dream and their parents who dreamed all their lives about the Jewish State they must give it up because an equal one-state solution is a democracy but it's not
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Jewish it will be B national no other way to have Muslims and and Jews and Christians exactly but you can't have it all so right now answering your question
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there's not much support for it and more than this nobody discuss it nobody talks about it because as I told you it's not on the table at all the whole issue but what I feel all the time is the gradual
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change which is very slow but is happening for example to say apartheid said about Israel 10 years ago and even five years ago was unheard of even in my newspaper
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they never used it it's becoming almost normal at least in my newspaper to label Israel as an apartheid state or as an apartheid state
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under creation or as a very close to an apartheid state like developing into it exactly the same about the one set solution
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people reject it but it's legitimate at least to raise it as an option my problem right now is lack of Interest not not resistance but a lack of any interest people don't believe in anything and don't want to
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discuss it why would they life is so good in Israel why would they bother so they're like complacent in their lives and we don't really think about it and that's exactly the role of the International Community community to
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change it because only the International Community can make Israel accountable for the occupation can make Israelis pay and be punished for the crimes as long as they
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will not pay and not be punished they will never change it I was genuinely Disturbed the other day on the 75th anniversary of the nagma nakpan and
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Ursula lighten from the EU the president of the European commission she had like an event or a press conference thing where she was congratulating Israel on on the 75th anniversary of their
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founding and no mention of the Palestinians you know and it just went way farther than I had thought like possible I guess I was still naive like how they support Israel the EU hasn't been like vocal about the
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the settlers grabbing more land and so on it hasn't been saying anything or only Holo condemnations which Israel learned to ignore so the you know they get some resolution
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that they did they they condemn Israel nobody cares anymore because it leads to Nowhere you can discuss now for years about
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labeling the products from the occupied territories even not boycotting them just labeling it which is the most banal thing to do what do you mean you buy a product you want to know where from is
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it um ABC and even this is still controversial and even this gets brutal attacks from Israel this is anti-Semitic step explain
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you why is it an anti-Semitic step when you buy products from Southeast Asia from the from the sweatshops there and you can decide to
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yourself I don't buy those products it's not moral to buy those products you can decide that you don't want to buy products from Russia because it's not moral to buy now products from Russia
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why can't you know that you buy products which were produced on a stolen land with workers which are totally have no social rights
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why don't you have the right at least to know it and this is anti-Semitism in the eyes of Israel this has been just like this anti-semitic just just marking the products coming from that not like like
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they should do if they're going to stand up for you know democracy human rights they would they would do something very consequential you know like sanctions just full-on stopping products being moved from from these occupied
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territories here in Iceland uh we are there's wine that's being sold that's being produced on the West Bank I believe in in one of the occupied territories it's not marked especially you know the you can see it's met in
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Israel but you don't get to know that it's made in occupied territories more than this it says it's made in Old Israel the wineries sagot what you get here
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this Winery specifically is built on a private owned land private Palestinian land it's a total crime this Winery the owner lives on a private Stoner led
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the winery is on a stolen land and you should know it and then you decide do I want to buy wine which was produced in an atmosphere of crimes or not and you
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don't know there's uh one one uh certain topic that I wanted to touch on uh netanyu the the leader of of Israel in the Israeli
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establishment uh he sort of undemocratically tried to cease power earlier this year correct me if I'm wrong uh and it sparked a lot of protests from
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israelis's citizens uh that kind of is indicative of the the the the governance that is in Israel I mean it's progressing further right
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do you think it will end up in like pure totalitarian fascism at one point if if it is allowed to to progress like this look if you will succeed
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we will face even a worse Israel than it was but remember one thing and here I am in a tiny minority in Israel like many other things the protesters are fighting over
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returning the situation to what it was they don't want more than this which means just to keep the Abundant State they are not ready to discuss the
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occupation at all it's very hard even to raise those demonstrations for democracy and they don't let people raise the Palestinian flag in those in those
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demonstrations this is not my protest I highly appreciate it because they stop some very fascist tendency it's very dangerous they are going very far but we have to remember it's about
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democracy for the Jews what they are fighting for and would it be in South Africa it would be a struggle among the white ones about the kind of regime that the whites have
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they don't touch the Palestinian issue at all and by this I cannot be part of them even though really it's very impressive and remarkable they go hundreds of
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thousands of people every week to the streets and they will stop this fascist wave I'm sure they are powerful enough to stop it and what next back to apartheid back to occupation
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this cannot be my protest so it is in like in its nature quite hypocritical absolutely that's exactly the hypocrisy of the Israeli Zionist lift which in many ways is worse than the
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right Wingers in many ways not in all ways yeah but at least the right Wingers are not hypocritical they say what they want the Israel Zionist left labor party and others
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are the biggest Hypocrites because they establish the occupation it's not the right wing as we establish it they establish the settlements it's not the right Wingers to establish it they started everything they had
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actively done the nakba it was not the right Wingers it was the Socialists left of Israel it's a horrible thing they want like Progressive things for for Jews for the
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Israelis but they won't do the same for the Palestinians exactly but one hopes that like you were mentioning you know calling Israel on apartheid state was kind of like completely radical just a couple of years ago but luckily today it
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seems to be more you know uh common so hopefully this one state solution can become uh more known in the Consciousness maybe the hopefully the Israeli and people
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will realize the need because like you mentioned in Israelis the one state Palestine doesn't really have a state you know they're totally controlled absolutely and the challenge is even
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bigger because once Europe and the United States will stand behind the one state solution and the way is still very long to this then they might come to Israel and say
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what about the one says what about equal rights and then Israel will have to say no we object equal rights and the moment Israel will say so which thrill
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Israel declares Itself by itself as an apartheid state if you say no to equal rights you say I am an apartheid state and then it is the time for the for the
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world to act indeed thank you very much and we are in solidarity with the Palestinians we hope this one state solution can can become
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more known because it seems to be the only viable Way Forward thank you very much dear listeners see you next time thank you very much to you and thank you for the good job you are
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doing still paying solidarity to the Palestinians to the Freedom Fighters to the to the people who really fight and struggle for human rights and for implementing the
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international law thank you very much for having me thank you Gideon For All You've Done integrity [Music] foreign
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