Video: Wisdom Gardening Afterflow: Ward Cunningham (DocDrop)

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yes please Sam thank you I'll just make it super quick um this this question of like coordination you know avoiding the two terrible outcomes of

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you know authoritarian you know control and and chaos and an inability and coordinate and inability to think collaboratively about things like artificial intelligence and genetic manipulation and the environmental

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crisis and you know climate change and you know Financial like starvation and inequality like we can't think about those things we can get ornate and authoritarianism which will just decide

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what it is it has to come from us coordinating together and that coordination I realized is so difficult because we're so complicated everything's so complicated um and so you can't just delegate to

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people because those delegates become easy pickings for corruption and you can't do it all yourself so what happens in the middle is liquid democracy which is where you delegate any proposal or

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any category of proposals to whoever any other person on the network and so it's this is the thing that um concentrates expertise onto the problems that we're

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facing so this is what's exciting me these days and I'm just trying to build this thing and where it's at right now is it's open we're open for Alpha Testing um you can get on there and mess around

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with it basically it's a way to propose things in a community um and then you can write reason statements like why or why not or where when how or those types of things and then people can see these statements and

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they can create alternate statements and then you can vote and I've just used the best voting technology so you can see how much people agree with a given statement how much they agree with the proposal this the statements how people

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make better proposals so it's sense making and um looking for synergistic satisfiers so it's a way of making decisions in groups and yeah call me if you have a group of

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people that you think would like to make some decisions together and don't mind messing around with you know kind of Half Baked software it's it's not too bad it's pretty good but yeah it's not quite there yet that's

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where I'm at thanks thanks John perfect please do put a link or at least one and um and yeah I think we we have some some more talking and testing to do for sure

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Mike hey I'll show my thing um where should I start foreign so it seems like the the simplest

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conception of the problematic can come up with is we have to figure out a way to trust people uh

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and institutions who deserve our trust for example um and the reason that I think this is the problem is there's been a lot of talking the um the web 3 crypto Community about using uh like

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cryptographic truth or cryptographic data in order to make history or information about history uh unchangeable for example if you have precise you know immutable records about

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temperatures and dates and transactions in the past um and then some politician tries to say hey that you know tries to make something up about it well then you can check the chain you can check the record and correct them and then know that that

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they're lying um I think that's uh not going to solve the kind of uh trust and credibility crisis that

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we're facing now because it's the meaning that information has doesn't come from the information itself for its veracity it comes from the interpretation that we put on it and the story that we can tell about it the

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internet pretty much gives us all access to the history of the world's information and yet there are still a few kind of main types of storytellers and interpreters that we trust to interpret for it and by the way that loud buzzing is coming from my guitar

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app so just give me one second oh cool you can also sing us a song or something I mean go ahead don't don't tempt me don't tempt me um yeah so the uh

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I think the the credibility crisis has to be solved at the interpretation layer not the information way and so what I'm building is a little social network called idea market and the way it works is it's kind

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of like Twitter where you make a short post and everyone is invited to rate that post on a scale of 0 to 100 to indicate their agreement or disagreement so if

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you say something like broccoli cures cancer post and then the world is kind of invited to express their agreement or disagreement with broccoli cures cancer on a scale of 0-100

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and those personal ratings kind of accrue in a credibility Petition of sorts you can see the record and the time stamp and the identity of everybody's ratings on that particular

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issue and what this allows us to do is when some important crisis happens or some important conjecture is made it creates a record of personal opinion

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that can be easily queried so in the future when hindsight sorts out uh what was true about something we can look back and say hey who was right about X at time t

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who believed what turned out to be the truth all the way back then and you created you basically query it and it creates a list of people and then you can say all right so what does this 100 people think about this current day

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processing issue that history has not had time to sort out so by keeping a an immutable record of personal opinion you can it makes it a lot easier to decide in hindsight who

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deserves trust right now um does it make sense that far yeah sweet awesome um cool so like the one of the one of the big underlying

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parts of our philosophy is we don't want to create just another Authority that tells people what to think we don't want to create some kind of ground truth that then gets enforced somehow we really

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just want to create a tool that lets people decide based on their own criteria who deserves trust and kind of um let trust accrue to the trustworthy

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based on the public publicly available track records that these recorded opinion data creates um so in addition to that sort of rating

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system there is a citation system so when you rate something let's say uh you know broccoli cures cancer 70 confident you can cite another post

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to explain or Justify Your rating so broccoli cures cancer 70 linked to paper where crackpot does the study on Broccoli curing cancer and so as a natural kind of as a result

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of natural use um idea Market also establishes a Knowledge Graph so that there are inferential links between the points of uh knowledge or the conjectures that

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become important in the general conversation um so that way if you click uh the post broccoli cures cancer it actually shows automatically all the top reasons for

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and against as well and then the top reasons for against those and kind of creates a canonical a canonical debate like as you've seen kyalo um it kind of does kealawan chain it

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kind of does an unshained collaborative Knowledge Graph with built-in ratings and this kind of you know collect the arguments the best Arguments for everything all in one place without having any particular

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Arbiter deciding what's true nobody decides what's true everyone just expresses what they think and based on how those people have done in the past everybody is welcome of their own accord to decide who deserves

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uh each of our each of our trusts so it's really a mechanism for uh hopefully accruing trust to the trustworthy without having any kind of authoritative hand on it and um because that trust

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common trust is the vector through which information can spread we don't necessarily have to agree on all of the facts about everything if we can agree on who to trust to do a good enough job

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uh in common does that kind of make sense yeah sweet thank you um Charles just posted a link it's on it's on arbitrim which is uh a relatively new uh crypto

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protocol built on top of ethereum so if anyone wants to try it but they're having trouble with the crypto side of it I'm going to put a um calendly link right there in the chat and I'm very very happy to spend a ton

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of time with you to kind of play with it and walk through it and introduce you to it and uh yeah it's just a big place for a conversation to happen and um yeah thank you thank you for checking it

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out I've written out a lot of the philosophical stuff right here in docs.anyamarket.io so please feel free to approves and I'll share my calendar link as well thanks Charles perfect thanks so much Mike really glad you're

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here hanging out yeah and I I definitely want to chat with you I'll I'll put a calendar I'll grab a link because it's there's some overlap with what we're doing so it's interesting yeah yeah it's quite fortuitous and if it works out if

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to be a fly on the wall there um Holly I'm wondering why you're still here um if if you wanted to share something of what what you're up to um you had mentioned the ike phrases project but I don't know if there's

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something else you'd like to talk about but um yeah you're here so I'm glad glad yeah yeah I mean I wasn't really I was just wanting to listen and listen in at the end but uh you know mostly I'm working

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on um data and uh so I'm really a coder developer so I'm not much of a speaker but um what I'm doing is working for what's called astral protocol and what we're doing is trying to do two things is is

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create a registry for a geospatial data um and so for instance like if you're looking at a lot of climate projects it's very location is very important right and so that's what we're we're working on that almost also trying to

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understand how to work with um look you know ZK locations so that's zero knowledge location so for instance like um thinking about like a data set like an indigenous place names data set

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you know you have some requirements in terms of you don't really want all of this data to be open right so how can we um how can we create these data sets

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um in web3 without uh you know you know by encrypting certain pieces of data and having people you know allowing people to ask questions about you know whether they can you know use it for a certain

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data set and that's so that's kind of where I'm at is with you know machine learning data sets and uh you know encryption of data um and geolocation so that's what I'm working on mostly I would love to lean

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in very slightly further on the this uh idea of indigenous protocols which um there's been some discussion synchronization but is would you just highlight that a little more if you would

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yeah so a few a few interesting books I would say like um you know there's some AI uh you know articles that you can I can share but also you know indigenomics is a new book that just came out and

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this idea that you know that we're we're trying to uh you know there's a an Ethics that we're bringing to it right the indigenous people that uh is based on land and other resources Beyond money

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and so I think that that's I think that's an important aspect of it um and you know the importance of location I think we've talked about that too is like uh you know I think a lot of

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young web free people like to travel you know and to you know take advantage of the fact that they can live anywhere but eventually we all need to be able to find a place and to settle down and to

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create a a you know a Perma Garden basically for ourselves and um so we we don't uh so we can you know use that as our as our story as you know and so I don't know is that what you're

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asking so I get a lot of thoughts but you know it's all over the place that was great I mean so so in terms of the garden and like to to go into the community garden zone like what does that look like

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is there something more or that yeah no it is I mean I think that like as a Navajo um I really you know I'm not a true Navajo because I don't live within the four mountains basically and so there's

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this concept that you know that there is so much history in a certain area of you know Northern New Mexico and Utah and Arizona that you know that without that tie to the land without me being there

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that I'm not you know not a a full Navajo you know and so I'm kind of it's an interesting um concept you know that you you know that that it is very important where we where we place

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ourselves physically and uh yeah and it's important where we put our data right so and yes how it flows and so forth but thank you yeah

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okay who would like to take the stick if anyone I think I'll grab it real quick um just just a thought that's that's been

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uh running around in my head with all this gardening talk and wisdom Gardens and actual Gardens and you know we've we've done ourselves a great disservice with monocropping and singling out

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things to grow all by themselves and that correlates to the silo effect of all our science and and and social structures and I think what we need to go back to again that place on using

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indigenous wisdom of companion planting we need to grow together to have the best result and I think that's you know exactly what's Happening Here Again thanks for organizing this so much

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Charles oh thank you I'm so glad to see you yes planting for the best result I'll just come in there a second as well uh lovely to meet you all and good to see you

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again Charles uh long time no see so to speak I know I'm not on camera no but it's kind of mashing potatoes at the same time when I'm talking so um yeah just what Marco said there when you you know with a companion planting

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and uh in the gardening uh it's also something that George says as well earlier on tonight I think what stood over me mostly for throughout the whole name is what yards something George hit on and it's um it's the

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question of not how we can go about building this collective intelligence but why and that is the way and I think that uh it's not something that we have to

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figure out but I think what we should watch like I I I'm a firm believer of getting in the room and and you know work just do the work and we can get in a room and we can talk about how to do

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the work or we can get in the room and do the work so you can't get in the room and do the work though unless you have a wife and what is the way so therefore I would say the idea would be for as we do

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in the within the collected in the black party and that you know we have enough setting a goal basically whatever that goal would be um probably a noble goal and when you

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have your normal goal set and the group that are you know if you have a group of people who are willing to engage in in trying to achieve this Noble goal then you just get in the room together and you apply yourselves and then rather

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than trying to figure out how to do it you achieve it by actually being there and working on trying to do it you know so it's not so much to to the um hold with the way that's listed over me

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tonight anyway definitely thanks again Charles thank you James great to hear you wood you came back on camera I'm just curious if you had something to offer

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thanks for hanging no I just stepped out and had my lunch and uh I was I was playing with this ancient GPS that I happened to find in the back of my work

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bench and it wasn't getting a fix so I had to go set it out on by the street where I could see more satellites and it still worked it was a 1993 vintage GPS

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who's alive in 1993 berlia yeah a few people yeah there you go yeah I was pretty disappointed with GPS I got that but uh now the phones do such a wonderful job

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they're not just phones I guess but um yes we call them phones you know did you know Doug Engelbert I didn't sort of get to that I had met him yeah you know of him

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even even when he was starting the internet information center or whatever that was you know we were paying attention to the emerging internet this was Purdue where I was in school at

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the time was a node on the arpanet that was uh kind of there were people who were in people who weren't and and uh

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he had to have some sort of military contracting business going on I guess we had that too and I mean I guess I'm curious about any introduction there or just observation I

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mean when did you sort of first become aware of of what he was trying to do and also doing oh I think we were all pretty skeptical you know it sounded pretty blue sky and uh

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since then I've known a number of people who worked very hard to work with him and apparently you know all his ideas are fairly complex and you can go away

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and work for a few months and come back and show him and he won't even say nice job he'll just say oh and you can do this and this and this and this and come up with more

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ideas so it's not very satisfying colleague I went to work for tectronics when I left school and moved to the West Coast and uh worked with some people who were

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involved in the mother of all demos and Roger Bates was one and and uh he came to tektronics and said well quit fooling around with these little

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computers let's just build a workstation and uh I worked in a group of computer scientists and the computer scientists couldn't figure out how to program it

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but Roger who wrote some nice CAD software in it they'd they'd come and ask him if he could if they could have look at the source and I did the same I was working on

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integrated circuits at the time and and he said well I'll give you the source but first of all you have to promise that you're not going to come back and tell me that I wrote it wrong because everybody else did you know he

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didn't have the proper abstractions in his program Anaconda he just wrote it to run fast on the hardware he built

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so that was a little bit of get the job done that I got in directly through Roger and I'm sure in the mother of all demos there was a lot of well let's just do this because it'll

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work tomorrow after after they really had it together they just showed it then I think something like that oh I think that they were prototyping into existence anything he

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could think about as long as the money kept flowing in it was mostly Army I guess money and uh you know Army tried to use it and discovered they couldn't use his thing

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he he had complained when I talked him he complained that the Macintosh really set things back because they took all of his ideas and left out the good parts

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he argued that if if you're going to build an information system that really connects you to the information it's not going to be easy to use you're

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going to have to learn to use it and learning to use that you know the way I compare I you know I tell people I got you know one of those iPads you know because I heard it was easy to use and

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you know it only played the same song all the time and I tried on a piano where I could play any song but all that ever came out of the piano was noise you know and banging the keys it just it

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just didn't make any music at all so the iPad is that what it was called iPad the I the the iTunes whatever it was called iPod I think that was the iPod the iPod

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could play a lot to me they could have that cool little spinny dial and stuff so a lot of audit design to it but it wasn't really an instrument it was a

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a phonograph so that's that's the message I got from him and he thought that we were all a bit lazy or the economy was lazy or you

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could only sell crippled things to the population and there might be something to that it is a military funding part and I'm just

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basically on my Learning Journey with with all this there's a lot of information but but it seems that there was a kind of golden age window of of of relatively unencumbered funding

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uh when arpanet um before I became uh DARPA you know before Arthur became Darkwood right and then there was more um uh creativity and license uh given to

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to innovate actually well well it wasn't lost on anybody in the military that the Soviets put a satellite up before we did and the existential fear was a

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nuclear weapons rate raining down from space and so anything that would let us protect ourselves from that vision of Stalin

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you know had to uh had to be funded so that that's that's what I think really yeah on there yeah and you know Kennedy had this speech he says you know

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we do these things not because they're easy but we do these things and the other things because they are hard and if you happen to hear the whole speech he was talking

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about the other things and the other things weren't going to the moon the other things were having presence in space so that it would be our nuclear weapons

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and not the Soviets that freed up a lot of money like as they call them I think it wasn't he the one that was in jured in space and and sort of receiving

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signals Beyond and and uh and so on I believe I know people who were in that world speak adoringly of wickliders having

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unbounded vision and seeing that in others and so I think that there are personalities that made it all happen but it was also a bit of a club you know you could get into that if you

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were already recognized from your time as a graduate student to know the people who know the people that invite you into the club and and I guess you know if you're trying to figure out

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who's ready to do this kind of work that seems so important I guess that sort of made sense I think now we're in the world where you know computers are pretty wonderful and everybody has a pretty wonderful

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computer and you know we're still allowed to program them it's not guaranteed to stay that way but that we're allowed to program these computers to make anything we want if you're willing to

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put up with the Arcane nature of the programming techniques that have persevered sustained whatever the right word is that that that you know there's a lot of people look at

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that and they say well that's crazy to do that you know it could be so much easier and so much more powerful and Allen K was one of those and I was kind of a subscriber

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okay to his work uh yeah Sam go ahead where are you going just yeah just it's almost 11 here all right thanks for being here yeah I

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like to stay to the end of the party event I think this time I'm talking about no no worries but thanks for thanks for having it this I thought this was the after party I like to stay to the end of

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the day what you like good to meet you take care great to see you Sam see you soon bye guys looking forward to meeting you all again somewhere I put a link there if

00:27:41

anybody wants to hit me up yeah just send an email Sam it for me dot oracle.io let's see how yeah there'll be ways to follow up and yeah there'll be ways to follow up and we'll have I guess we'll have more conversation but

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hopefully we'll you know actually do stuff as well I guess I'm wondering what if if um maybe if if there's um a way to to

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bundle how does um Wiki and fed Wiki and this the latest thing I thought I forgot what it was called but uh Rob best should the very recent

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um collaborative graph tool I guess and sort of how how and where does that fit in and how does it help us yeah yeah that's a a

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good question and Robert's pretty sure that it does uh I I [Music] think that that I'm drawn to what you

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might call the quirkier side of things things that might work because in the programming there's something powerful there and yet to be explored

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so I have a handful of people who kind of hang out in that world with me and and robbers in and out and I said well you know we've in the context of Wiki we've came

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came to realize that this property graph stuff's pretty powerful and we'd done maybe a dozen different little things with it and of course doing a thing in Wiki

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means there's a Wiki page on somebody's site that does something clever and if you really wanted to put them all together you had to know how to find all those pages and line them up and you could do it

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but it was awkward and then we said well we let's think about how it really ought to be and we had trouble articulating that so I said well let's just let's just

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take the ones that we like and put them together in a single application and what you're talking about what would that single application do and we weren't at all sure but in a conversation we were having on

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a video chat like this and I know Robert was there and and uh we came up with collider you know because it puts things together collider like a like a semiconducting super

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Collider and I said well man that's a great name let's call it the semiconducting super collaborator and we dropped the semiconducting because that didn't make any sense at

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all and we call it the hypertext just to have enough words we call it the hypertext super collaborator but it's really just you know because it's all in JavaScript we just took all the little Parts out of Wiki and put it together in

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one app and that was that was easy until we got to the part where it actually had to remember anything and that's because it's easy to build client applications

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and it's easy to save things in a Wiki because wikis save things but we were stepping out of the wiki and I was talking to my son who's more

00:31:03

into you know storage services and I said well you could use this or use that or you know there's a lot of clones of AWS buckets S3 thing kind of

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equivalents which is becoming the web version of memory and they all look pretty awful to me and then I you know I looked at croquet croquet is a a thing that's 10 years old

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maybe longer depending upon how you count that is a client a client uh uh model sharing thing any ideas you have an abstraction you

00:31:47

call the model and any change you do to the model you do by announcing to the network that you want to change your model and then it reflects that event

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through all the models that are participating so you end up with this this thing in your client memory in JavaScript that is just the same everywhere

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so as long as you can express what you want to do to your model is you know send the message to my you know and it's right there so you got to just promise not to just touch it and do things to it but to talk to it through the reflector

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Network and it's startling how well that works for this application where we say well we got these little graphs and we want to share the graphs

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around and we want to explore the mix and match capability so that became the the super collaborator and and does what does it do

00:32:50

you know we're kind of figuring that out but the the premise is is it's a chat program but instead of chatting in statements in English

00:33:03

you chat in little networks of nodes and relations as a system thinker would expect I guess so I say it's the chat room for system thinkers and then the system thinkers

00:33:17

say well the relations are sort of sort of assumed you know well no no you have to name them and put them in to be

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able to make a statement in graph and and so it's in that sense it's quirky in the sense that it's it's it's difficult it's difficult to use until you get The Knack of it and when you get the Knack

00:33:42

of it you say oh this is pretty magical as long as you've put in all the work that I just put in to learn it and then you discover that none of your friends want to do

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that and this gets back to uh to uh Engelbert and should the interface be easy or is it okay if the interface is hard well he was big on learning the language

00:34:06

that it took just sort of grinding it out for some days or whatever you know nights he would he would he would be up nights learning the the he had this corded keyboard right yeah yeah and so

00:34:20

like that was very complicated and but but he like was determined to and he and I guess he wasn't totally alone but maybe you know there weren't that many that got really into that right I I don't know exactly but yeah

00:34:33

The Corned keyboard you know I I did a little programming project at the mechanical engineering department at Purdue where they had an mlac which was an early desktop computer

00:34:46

and they had built their own corded keyboard foreign was don't use more than one button at a time and what I did is I said okay I'll have

00:34:58

the four buttons and then the thumb will be a shift key so there are the four buttons and then the shifted four buttons then the shift meant I'm really talking developer talk to my own program

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and the other four buttons are to do things if you're a user of the program so nobody in their right mind would press the thumb button unless they wanted to look at you know dumps but but it allowed me to write an

00:35:25

interactive program while the program was running I could say why did it do that and I just hold the thumb key down and do some stuff and answers popped out it it helped that that the language that I

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needed to program in took half an hour to compile and I had an hour a week on this machine so so I wasn't going to do a second compile I had to thumb my way into what you know

00:35:52

machine what do you think you're doing and that that worked pretty well but yeah it didn't it didn't seem like something there there was a paper and I can't remember who it is as I said well let's

00:36:05

just put one of those chord keyboards on a handheld radio and then just cord out our instructions to the computer and they imagined you know I think they sold it to the Army like every

00:36:18

every GI could carry one of those and couldn't important enemy positions or something but that I mean if you compare that idea to what what the phone has become you know no

00:36:33

you just talk to it much easier I I don't know if this will work on my because I have the the fuzzy background but I have this let's see if that's good I have this mouse can't really see it it's like very

00:36:46

ergonomic it's I'm here in Switzerland closer to your face and then we'll see it thanks oh yeah that works so it's kind of a funky it's like it's got this the reason I'm showing it is it has like all

00:36:58

these extra buttons and knobs then I never use them beautiful and it you know see this thing on the side what I don't know I mean I could find out and there's these extra buttons in here so I just thought that just for comparison that's like a new

00:37:11

version of I could burn it yeah yeah I think I think if you were working as a graphic designer in a space where you your workspace is just filled with menus

00:37:23

and three sides and and you don't have enough room to work and you get the menus you use turned into that button it could become very efficient thank you for that yes

00:37:35

so so it would have to be some task that you just spend half a day on every day or a day you know and then then mastering something like that it's basically what I what I consider to

00:37:49

be largely Windows management like and I have these two monitors which is better already but but then you know it's like the real estate and the navigation so it's a little challenge

00:38:00

one question is like how do we get how do we make wallets private Keys public Keys you know how do we do we create a new metaphor for that do we you know because people are you know we that's our number one blockage right Mike I

00:38:14

mean I guess maybe you've also had you know to onboard some people in terms of uh you know trying to get them you know you know figured out in terms of you know how to you know what is a metamask account what's a private key you know

00:38:27

what's all that I don't know I mean can we come up with a new metaphor for that to bring more people into web3 or is that is that just never going to happen are we just going to have to people are just gonna have to learn it as a New

00:38:39

Concept and uh yeah probably you're asking about metaphors in terms of metaphors for the private key and for how web3 works exactly um

00:38:52

I I think that problem is above my pay grade uh but as you know the Ambassador from web3 self-declared uh maybe

00:39:04

um I think the that problem of onboarded people into web 3 is so huge for the industry in general that there's a lot of money and effort going into solving it and for people who are working on solving a specific

00:39:17

problem within that such as uh collective intelligence or something like that um I've my policy has generally been letting the people who work on onboarding full-time to focus on the

00:39:31

onboarding and we just be ready when they get it done um that's that's been working for me I'm also optimistic because the nft craze has brought a lot of people into the web

00:39:43

3 space and familiarize them with the technology you otherwise would not have been so we're getting a lot of help from major corporations and general weird little Trends to uh promote onboarding

00:39:54

at a far more effective uh scale than we would be able to if we spent half of our energy on that um so I feel somewhat confident um expecting people to have some kind of

00:40:07

uh greater facility with web3 than they do now uh within the next couple of years especially also since wallets and browsers are getting very good at abstracting away the wallet signing uh

00:40:21

process the transaction signing process um so there's there's kind of a range of a range of ways to handle that and it is it's being worked on a lot and their

00:40:33

question I guess become times where exactly is the trade-off between ease of use and the specific benefits that only on-chain information can provide and the security that can provide

00:40:46

um I definitely think there's a there's a case to be made that in lots of social network context it doesn't matter that much whether you're on chain but when it comes to organizing uh common knowledge

00:40:59

itself or iterating on common knowledge itself making points of reference and points of inference that huge numbers of people are going to be referring to and very important decisions are going to be made based on I think for those kinds of

00:41:12

situations we really do need the security of a blockchain because that's going to be the battlefield that Nation States play out their propaganda on so there are some use cases where that having the technology backing it is less

00:41:26

important in somewhere it's more important and um I think it'll get handled I hope that helps yeah that makes a lot of sense I think a lot of people I mean for me it's a lot easier for just to have somebody

00:41:38

create a coinbase account or something you know because then I at least feel comfortable that they're not going to lose all their funds you know by accidentally you know um you know placing their private key out there or something but that's but

00:41:51

they really need to take that step to you know a public blockchain to be able to you know um really avoid those issues that you're talking about in terms of the centralization that happens with

00:42:04

coinbase or you know some of these other you know larger um these other uh you know non-custodial because or custodial accounts I guess is what they are yeah so anyway

00:42:16

I I think it's just a matter of we're going to have to explain to people what a wallet is what you know you know what what accounts are and how this all works so anyway could could you describe that

00:42:29

in a property graph if it's a system would it would it fit or is it more kind of a vision thing are you asking me you know I'm not a crypto person so I

00:42:47

don't know this stuff yeah um I think the the question I read I read the uh oh is it the uh the RSA paper you know 30 years ago and public key made sense

00:43:00

then and I think served us well but the blockchain maybe less so yeah I mean the the challenge that that Holly was was asking about has more to

00:43:13

do with well even if we can build this how do we get people to use it given that it's hard to use harder to use than Twitter harder to use than an app that you just sign up with your email address or something like that

00:43:25

um well you know I want to point out that Wikipedia is pretty successful and it doesn't require any identity at all yeah yeah um yeah I don't think how do they do that

00:43:39

well they're on web they're on web too and I'm not oh the wrong web I'm not a coder so oh they're TLS things easier but um and tour I mean

00:43:51

most of the most of the DraStic majority of Wikipedia uses from uh it was from Reading rather than from writing right and except for all the writers they love it sure but they have they have the

00:44:06

enthusiasm the activation energy to learn what they need to learn in order to be able to write yeah most of them are high school kids well the mode the most commonly reported

00:44:16

age is is like 17 or something and if you think about it they just went through you know 8 10 12 years of school learning to write and then having all their written stuff thrown

00:44:30

away at the end of every semester and here they can write and it sticks around that's pretty phenomenal that is motivation to somebody who bothered to pay attention through that is a great one in high school that

00:44:44

is a great point in terms of the I mean there's something I haven't tracked it closely but I did have some years ago experience writing and going through the kind of editorial stuff um on a handful of things with varying

00:44:57

experience but um it seems that as as the whole thing scaled their infrastructure of necessity also had to with regard to moderation Staffing and how that all

00:45:09

plays out I I don't know so closely but it's it's a different like to ask a question from the early days compared to now it's a bit different I I guess well they still don't require a login

00:45:23

to their to their credit unless you want to edit the Elon Musk page or something then then they they clamp down on that because you know the they found that people who

00:45:34

care about Eon must don't behave very well uh the uh I was gonna make another point oh yeah I made the first Wiki and and uh uh we had

00:45:49

a community of computer-ish people because that's who was on the net at the time and they wanted to understand patterns but every now and then somebody would write something about guns or abortion

00:46:01

and I just erased it immediately because I knew that what I designed could not resolve the hatred that surrounds around those two subjects so as long as we were

00:46:15

talking about the command object or the visitor protocol you know we could we could behave like adults but not not guns and abortion and somehow

00:46:26

Wikipedia for all their management their attention to references for example from credible sources can talk about guns and abortion you

00:46:39

know so that's to their credit and do it in in 30 different languages so that I don't even know how to do that's phenomenal so so I think they're covering a lot

00:46:51

more ground than than most uh web dreamers than I covered that's for sure it's it's a shining example what do you mean more ground than you cover I didn't I don't know what what did you mean by

00:47:08

that oh I I my Wiki was small and it was only because I had a willing community that made it into something their Wiki is large and has evolved with the times

00:47:22

to become something that most of all is multilingual I wouldn't do that because I you know an American I only learned the wrong language you know a name it was the language of

00:47:35

the settlers who settled the country you know so so uh that that puts him in a different category but the the fact that they had levels in the top

00:47:51

level was called a bureaucrat made it clear they knew what they were doing and and then of course they have the Uber bureaucrat which is Jimmy Wales himself

00:48:04

but when they had their crisis of management a couple years ago Jimmy was living in London said well maybe I need to come back and help straighten this out and they said no

00:48:15

nobody's asking for you Jimmy so I thought that was that was funny but they've had some good executive directors apparently they have a pretty good one now so so that that and if you

00:48:29

look at something as old as Britannica they are new they're nowhere near as old as Britannica and I don't think there's anything about Wikipedia that means that it will continue

00:48:41

for another 20 or 30 years however old it is it's it's fragile as anything that really works is tends to be fragile

00:48:54

hmm interesting I don't know it I haven't studied it enough as a sort of whole system to think about its robustness or not but um

00:49:07

yeah I I get the opportunity to talk to people who care about it a lot every now and then I also read their research list which is where they interact with the people graduate students or whatever

00:49:21

trying to write a degree on the social behavior of wikipedians and so there's lots of theories being produced and

00:49:33

most of them recently about why is Wikipedia so racist and why do they hate women and then you think well it's just these college kids writing it they're probably pretty frustrated

00:49:47

because they haven't had a date and maybe hate women or maybe it's just an amusement of a literature you can't find any references in in reputable sources that say anything nice about women and that's

00:49:58

because they're all owned by men something about the moderation and stuff I'm wondering if um if just back on the let's say uh blockchain web3 these terms

00:50:15

are limiting I think but maybe just to indicate um and the the the the commonality of of your work with the decentralization aspect

00:50:27

um and maybe say something about the the FED wikians also as a culture around Community yeah I I because I distributed some Wiki software and

00:50:40

people would make wikis and they would find that if they walked away from that Wiki for a summer and came back in the fall they would find it had been trashed

00:50:51

and that's because the people who were selling website optimization had to bump the reference counts to to get the Viagra to sell

00:51:05

and they would find sites that were user generated and run robots against them to fill them up with rash and so I thought well how about if you want to participate in

00:51:18

a conversation about viagra or whatever you want to talk about that you set up a server and pay to have the disk space backed up and and participate at

00:51:29

that level just put up a server and and then we'll use Creative Commons to talk to each other and uh that turns out to not be such a great idea

00:51:42

mostly because having sites talk to each other is what the the uh the fraudsters do you know or the the surveillance we look like uh unwanted surveillance

00:51:55

and so pretty much everything that has happened in the last 10 years has been to try to make it harder to talk to each other client to client and uh

00:52:08

you know the the just the whole notion of course that you have to do this elaborate header stuff just to be able even to fetch a page I have a page full of Json and you can't safely read it

00:52:22

because what it might infect your computer with I don't know what I could do to your computer if you read my Json but no you

00:52:34

have to you have to have permissions to do that and and uh uh TLS is another nightmare that is to my

00:52:46

mind strictly uh security theater you know that that people you know that that it's like if you had an https

00:52:58

address you're part of the small and Elite internet instead of the old and public internet and in the small and Elite internet you're supposed to feel safe

00:53:11

because you could talk to your bank that way you could also talk to Twitter or Facebook and and if you feel you're not being watched you're crazy you know and and Snowden

00:53:24

demonstrated that we're all being watched and we're still watched you know but but that that the https has done nothing in that regard I asked on Twitter once I said well

00:53:37

who's really who's really been invaded and some guy said oh my God I was I was at the airport in Amsterdam trying to just look at a friend's website and all of a sudden there were ads on it

00:53:50

something let's see you're at a airport and you're complaining about seeing yet I guess you don't know how airports work you know but you know it was just it was just silly and and they said well

00:54:05

okay well I could get on your Wiki and read anything well on my weekly you can read anything you know it's it's just it it the openness

00:54:16

just you know makes a difference now now it's harder to write it could probably find a way to write onto my Wiki in which case I'd just restore it from backup and it's not any different than the problems I

00:54:28

had on the original Wiki that anybody could I remember some guy posted and signed as L and K so I was against signatures I said it doesn't matter just

00:54:40

let your writing stand for itself but he is people wanted to put their names on what they wrote and he put his name as now okay and then a few paragraphs later he says well you know I'm not really Ellen K

00:54:52

M like we didn't know that already because he didn't talk like Alan K but but uh yeah oh yeah so you discovered that you could write anybody's name on there so

00:55:06

there you go that's what you can do and all the Machinery that have been put into the web in the last uh last uh 20 years to try to prevent people from saying they are someone

00:55:22

other than they are anything short of actually passing a lot of saying that that's illegal and suing them in court because if you tamper with too much you might actually ruin

00:55:35

the ability for advertisers to lie because advertising is really lying and we fund the Internet by lying

00:55:47

maybe I should say misrepresenting but by misrepresenting you know it's never the truth it rules the mental thing that I thought of but go ahead yeah well you got me going here

00:56:04

in the after party right but the the you know I spend a lot of time trying to figure out how to create the creativity that seem natural

00:56:18

in the first five years of Wiki where everybody who showed up wanted to explore the possibility of patterns and so forth and and at that time desktop

00:56:30

Computing was pretty new so everybody is trying to figure out how to program a desktop computer to really be friendly it and and uh you know it was it was a

00:56:42

creative time and and as time went on it became less and less so as as uh as I think the motivation for participating on the internet and the uh

00:56:59

corporate interests of monetization you know to be able to make some money off of delivering something to the internet and you know Jimmy Wales was no exception

00:57:13

but somehow he had this thought that was really libertarian that he shouldn't put advertising on the site

00:57:26

and uh you know thereby that that simple act saved it and and probably because he thought he could make more money some other way

00:57:36

but you know it's it's it's a quirk to to to stand away from uh making money so I

00:57:51

I can't resist the temptation since we got this far like then what's I don't know if you want to offer it as a as a guest a prediction or just the price possibility space of what's the

00:58:03

the nail in the coffin if if it's too fragile like I I don't know if there's a quick way to to say what you see because you have yeah you know uh there are smart people working on lots

00:58:16

of stuff and I kind of found my way into this croquet thing and croquet is interesting because uh there's no server there's a network and and smart

00:58:29

networking people have worked on the network but it uh you know if if you and I are sharing stuff it's it's like immediate

00:58:41

and if we both walk away it could be gone so I put in a facility and what we've done there say well if you see something you like download it save it you know put it

00:58:58

on your own disk where you can keep an eye on it and the industry for whatever reason is trying to move away from that idea of actually even having files

00:59:10

you know it says like why would you want to have files like we can save your files for you better than you can you'll lose them you know so upload them to us you know and and we're

00:59:21

no no no download them you know so so we're we're kind of download oriented instead of upload oriented and and that that fits well

00:59:34

with the croquet so uh of course they're looking at you know having kind of a broadcasting thing you know so there could be an

00:59:45

event and a lot of people are doing things in the event but mostly people are there to watch the other people doing the events and you can kind of go stand out on the playing field if you want to watch it that way you know because you're in a

00:59:58

three-dimensional space but that the network traffic is kind of going from a broadcaster out to the audience and uh

01:00:11

you know they're not to that point level but but I think that that's the only model they can see where that actually grows to become dominant and and

01:00:24

I I think that uh I I I think that the network is you know I I basically am in under house arrest because I won't go outside for fear of uh catching the catch in the

01:00:42

corona and and still do you know as an old person so so uh you know The Internet's been good to me but I would say that that I don't have a

01:00:56

community near as big as I once did because the community has gone off and done other things my my the original Community basically said well gosh I put

01:01:07

all this work into this pattern stuff the agile Computing and stuff like that I I'm a consultant I better go out and do some Consulting and as a consultant it didn't make sense

01:01:20

for them to make my Wiki more of a place they needed to enter the blogosphere and make their own space you know stand for them and I encourage them to to do so

01:01:33

but that that you know so I thought so I think Wiki as a thing was was a period in time the internet showed up the computer people had the internet before anybody else they wanted to talk about

01:01:46

how computers are changing and computers changed and you know I could be in any office listening to computer programmers talking and you know it don't look only a couple of minutes before they'll drop a word that was coined on that Wiki you

01:02:00

know so it was very influential in that regard but uh I I think that what I'm trying to do is kind of reinvent that by being more like

01:02:12

the old internet than inventing a new kind of Internet you know more like the blogosphere the only twist we have is we say well yeah it's going to be like the blogosphere except that we can put data

01:02:25

and share data that way and the data that we've fallen in love with recently is these property graphs and I think they're pretty magical and if you think about it a property graph with its nodes and relations

01:02:39

feels like a little miniature Wiki so I I think that there's something that I find attractive about it I'm not alone but uh it it there is a knack to it too and

01:02:54

just as Wiki made hypertext a little easier than the hypertext experts you know the stuff we're doing with property graphs is a little easier

01:03:06

than most people who are properly trying to do property graphs as opposed to you know something that links stickies together or something so so uh

01:03:23

sometime probably now is not the time um we should kind of look at together the the little idiomatic UI that lets

01:03:37

you off the cuff create property graphs and it helps to you know like so many things it helps to have a subject if you have a subject area

01:03:49

and one of one of our community guys Mark Pearson is very interested in how neighborhoods organize for Action to get things done

01:04:02

since they're not being served by their government or commercial interests they got to do it themselves and how do they organize to get things done and he has a

01:04:15

a structure that he likes to put over those sort of relationships that involve what do people do what are the organizations that they create do what

01:04:27

are the actions that they perform and and what are the ideals that hold those together and he says lots of people will do that stuff but the idea also including ideals

01:04:40

is is Pearson really emphasizes that so with that extra bit of knowledge that this is the nature of the discourse we're going to happen we're going to have that that uh makes it easier to

01:04:55

make the graph because you know between an action and an ideal we kind of know what the relationship is there and so that helps to make all the relationships that we need

01:05:08

and Thompson Morrison's the other guy who's really done a lot with the Federated Wiki and he picked up on this and he says yes that's that's a great idea but it's really

01:05:20

it's really about uh the student the learner and the Curiosity that turns into surprise and how that surprise feeds the

01:05:33

Curiosity of fellow students and so it's it's a how do we map what he would call a Learning Journey into a graph and and where it is one

01:05:46

student's graph touch another student's graph because they recognize that this aspect of organizing their own learning is the same and that that that's interesting

01:06:01

and uh he's working on his second book done in Wiki with tool car authors very daring you know in the sense we said well yeah different people can cooperate so he

01:06:14

says well we'll get my two co-authors the first book he wrote himself so it was easier and so they got this part where they finished the individual stories but they have this Collective

01:06:28

pool of pages all kind of linked various ways that they call the garden and uh when you look at it with some

01:06:40

effort it becomes pretty clear it's a kind of a jungle more than a garden because the garden should be beautiful everywhere but there should be paths that are pretty clear of

01:06:54

how to move through the garden if you're trying to appreciate the garden and I always think of Bouchard Gardens up there and BC is pretty incredible garden and you can find many different ways through it but you all

01:07:08

see you know it just it is Bouchard the the and and uh so this idea of having a kind of a

01:07:19

schema an implied schema that you can step away from if you want to but where you say well okay you've talked about this now how does that relate to this you're creative but what did your creativity

01:07:32

lead to surprise what was the surprise that you you know or maybe more than one surprise how do they link together and that that um means that once

01:07:44

the students the learners end up talking about that way then the things start to collide you know it's not like doing a book report you know in a book report you just talk about the

01:07:57

book where it says you're talking about your own experience and that I think is is this this is what the community people who hang around on our calls are

01:08:10

discovering and then I'm a voyeur hanging around and they they let me hang around because every now and they said I'm trying to do this and it doesn't work and that's how I'll write some little code I'll make some code that helps you so I'm I'm still just

01:08:22

programming but in a community with some pretty together people and they're all driven by making neighborhoods more accommodating

01:08:35

to the people who live there or education more accommodating for the students that are forced through that and and you know enough of a socialist that I can get excited about that

01:08:51

yeah yay for socialism no wait a second you don't say that in this country yeah apparently Chris Alexander uh Chris Alexander was developing how do

01:09:06

we build whole communities that hold together and do things and and somebody in his Department maybe said well that's never gonna work

01:09:20

because it to do that it would be communism and Alexander foolishly said well if it's communism then I'm a communist and

01:09:33

that was not something you say if you're trying to advance in Academia not in this country you don't say communism so so I am not a communist I want to make that clear but I do think that

01:09:47

the system nature of the stuff we do that it's worth paying attention to that and emphasizing things that tend to work that way as opposed to I guess the the capitalist thing is the

01:10:04

only thing that matters is a single Dimension called wealth and whoever has the most most wealth is the most successful and yeah that the

01:10:19

it does spur a certain amount of activity you know that search for wealth it is kind of hard on the world are you raising your hand because you're you're

01:10:31

looking for some wealth are you raising your hand oh because I'm talking too much let me just shut up for a minute yeah somebody pressed the play button on Ward oh good you mean the pause button

01:10:44

why don't you go ahead team okay thanks thanks no I'm I'm mesmerized as well um as I mentioned earlier uh we're we're going to be doing some work this afternoon our meeting has been delayed

01:11:02

two and a half hours thanks to you all mainly you Charles and happily so um so anyway specifically Marco James and I are going to be heading over to our Zoom room which I just put in the

01:11:15

chat everyone's welcome to join us but so I wanted to so we're going to be bailing but I first wanted to make that invitation and number two if there's anyone has a question for us before we go about anything including what we're

01:11:28

about to work on happy to happy to answer but uh I have a question which is um well first of all I I didn't see it since you cut your hair so that's really cool

01:11:41

um no I wanted to if there's a really like a a the Nano version of what's up around the way at radish Etc um the the the one Whatever minute

01:11:54

version because you know because it's it's quite a landscape with with conversation and so on right yeah yeah happy to give a minute answer

01:12:05

to that or even a five-minute answer if others want to jump in Marco James anyone let's make it a conversation so Marco just put into the cat into the chat uh Kindred Spirits we did a really

01:12:18

cool series of events in Ireland this last summer under the banner of uh of kindred spirits and um that's a whole story unto itself

01:12:31

um and we're keeping our eyes on the gargantuan benevolent elephant in the room um which we're absolutely committed to which is this vast planetary

01:12:45

uh network of conversations Garden of conversations Universe of conversations um that you know a lot of really cool conversations are a already happening and B a whole bunch more are going to

01:13:00

start once there is a reasonable playground for conversations to spawn take root you know become disseminated Etc so um we basically

01:13:14

believe that there is not a healthy um searchable indexable um internet of conversations right there's an information internet of information there's an Internet of

01:13:29

Things there's social networks internets of people there's all kinds of stuff out there but not an internet of conversations which I would have thought if I'd go back in

01:13:42

time 25 years or 30 years I would say hey that's the most important thing that we should be building in the internet is the internet of conversation so that we can create this vast planetary brain so my mental model is

01:13:56

you know there's a whole bunch of neurons in each of our brains right and these neurons are connected by synapses and it's really all these connections and firings and all that that takes a bunch of you know pretty simple bit like

01:14:10

processors and turns it into something absolutely genius which is a human being well what if it's like a fractal and we expand out what if in at a big macro

01:14:22

level instead of dealing with individual neurons we're dealing with individual conversations and just like a neuron fires and then all these other neurons get the message what if a conversation fires

01:14:35

some conclusions some synthesis some invitation some something right some document whatever and that firing is received by other conversations neurons Mega neurons in

01:14:49

the in the network and so on and so on so I think we're we're we have been beckoning for uh this planetary uh Collective human intelligence Collective super intelligence I believe we've been

01:15:02

beckoning for this for quite some time but haven't quite put it together yet what it's going to take to accomplish that we think we're fast on the trail of finding that thing in fact we think

01:15:16

we found it and that's what we're going to talk about in this next meeting yeah go ahead Charles go ahead will it be what can it be wise that's my question just to further provocation Jamie can it be wise what about the the

01:15:29

collective you know super wisdom or wisdom's already super but I don't know I you know you know I'm I'm not no longer down with with collective intelligence but but go ahead yeah yeah

01:15:42

I think I think the wisdom will be an emergent property that will be inevitable um that the best wisdom best wisdoms will bubble to the top

01:15:54

and then you know I I that that that's my belief I didn't catch that right exactly but I I guess I'll take your word for it for now okay I could be wrong but I mean that's just what I think so it's not my word

01:16:08

it's my belief um but anyway we're we're gonna set about building this thing actually literally right now today so if you want to be a part of it join us I'm not trying to approach people from this

01:16:20

meeting it's all good enjoy guys I won't be myself following there but uh anyone else who's still here is is welcome and yeah I don't mind um just kind of winding it up um I don't know Michael is

01:16:34

still still present uh able to to check in and check out or if not it's okay and George's AI I hope that's George poy or that I'll get a copy of that

01:16:47

um and wood I'm just so delighted that you know you had the time and and uh and willingness to be well and and I think Robert's a kind of a permanent member of the community here

01:16:59

he's often involved he's really my contact yeah yes and um but not I don't know there's no one particular Community um here here today A lot of us um well

01:17:13

Mike and me currently now remaining are from colonel colonel dot Community if I don't know if you caught that before um but um I was wondering what colonel was because yeah yeah yeah and if you

01:17:25

could spend five minutes explaining that you know I would love to well I could do that um hold on the chat was uh well yeah Jamin got it it's not the hot link but there you go um

01:17:36

or or I could just read well it's uh it it was um there was some reference away earlier at the beginning but it essentially it does relate to web3 sort of broadly but it's it's much

01:17:50

it's it's beyond at this point and it's evolving it's co-evolving and one of them the wonderful uh things is that it the the the tagline is community of care

01:18:02

it's just kind of the core value is care and generosity and kind of reciprocity and a lot of good good positive human values um within uh largely but not only Builders or

01:18:15

biddlers as they call call them um they don't be b-u-i-d-l ittle is um the the ethereum answer to the Bitcoin people

01:18:28

um hoddle hodl hold on for dear life so the ethereum says oh no build for dear life so so to be a biddler is kind of a a thing um so it's a lot of bid Learners and um

01:18:41

and and others who are also creatives and and a whole a good Spectrum on the wonderful people it's growing they have about three cohorts a year they call them blocks

01:18:54

they're eight weeks of actually kind of syllabus and and guilds and tracks and a whole variety of of uh tandem conversations of which this is one has been one

01:19:07

um and but the tandem conversations also are semi-porous and so um or permeable that we can invite others that are not um carnal fellows if you will it's a

01:19:19

fellowship as well and it's a bunch of things and check it out and I can only just encourage it heartily it's a wonderful people in place to be

01:19:31

maybe that's enough there Michael so as I I scan the site there's a conversation about community and learning and understanding and and I'm gathering that this is

01:19:44

understanding to solve problems that are being ignored that we're going to understand the world and make the world a better place or is it personal growth kind of understanding

01:19:56

be more effective at work answers both but but Mike you're back if you like to chime in I think you do do even better than me probably at this point of describing kernels uh overarching

01:20:09

mission so go for it sure um Colonel is kind of an accelerator for the web 3 Industry where people even if

01:20:21

they're not exactly sure what they're working on are interested in building in crypto blockchain that whole entire ecosystem and one of the things I appreciate about it is it takes a

01:20:32

particularly philosophy first sort of approach it's not it's not like a coding school it's not like an investing school it's not like a product design school it's really a philosophy as

01:20:46

infrastructure school um and so there is a lot of sort of personal growth related conversation and general Vibes because uh some of the

01:20:59

premises uh involve the idea that we can't you know build wisely until we are wise and if we are hurt and traumatized then we will hurt

01:21:13

and traumatize people with the things that we build and given that the things that we build in web 3 are relatively permanent uh it may you know be extra important if we build

01:21:24

things badly so you know there is an element of Kernel that involves uh Healing The Physicians as it were so that uh the people who have these aspirations to build the infrastructure of the future

01:21:37

um have uh a heart that's oriented toward doing that in a way that doesn't have as much collateral damage as infrastructure that we are currently enjoying

01:21:55

I just said I have to go uh it's half 11 here in Ireland and I'm supposed to be jumping over another meeting with him and God knows how loud so I'm already you know approaching midnight so great

01:22:08

meeting you all and uh again Charles nice to see you again and uh thank you all for um everything uh for all your contributions and good night and God bless thanks so much and

01:22:23

um see you around soon yeah good good to meet the new people always good to see you Charles you've been missed um and and to to give you a little hope

01:22:36

uh you know we've we've really reached out to the indigenous communities the indigenous uh Irish and the indigenous Americas and we're working with them to

01:22:48

use indigenous wisdom to guide our Collective Journey and and use that that that wisdom so

01:22:59

I I thought so yeah I respect that though in their terms I'm a settler but the uh uh that the the understanding

01:23:14

how you know I I get it here in the Northwest is is Forest management and the forests were managed so effectively for thousands of years and you know that we could screw it up so

01:23:27

much for economic gain in the last hundred you know it's kind of sad so I I see a lot of that kind of thing as a system that was working

01:23:41

no shortage of warfare in those days either but you know it was probably honorable Warfare so I uh I I think that that is probably

01:23:52

the source of more reflection on my own as I pay attention to that and then then and and uh Mike I was bashing on crypto

01:24:05

but everything you said about you know thoughtful application of Technology I'm I'm all for it and you're probably a deeper thinker than I am so I'm not going to lead that charge but I

01:24:19

do I do admire it so somehow between the past and the future you know we can better what we have here for allowing me to show up between the past and the future is exactly where we

01:24:34

are and I think we just wanted to underscore what what Holly was sharing in terms of the indigenous protocols efforts or orientation awareness so I think that's just a wonderful place

01:24:45

to to leave it here for now and thank you so much everybody who's here still here hanging and stuck it out through the afterflow and everyone else

01:24:58

is listening back much louder bye bye thanks Charles thank you thanks Charles thanks word Mike everyone

01:25:10

just gonna grab the flat here see you all soon