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so I get the privilege now to host a conversation between these two very fine thinking gentlemen I'm going to start with Craig Craig you have before we
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start actually for the people who are standing the back there are some seats up front here if anyone wants to come up I'll give you a moment so Craig you have a lot of fan boys fan people right a lot
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of them are here always wanting to you know who are on all of you George Gilder is probably the first person I've seen you with where you totally fanboy doubt on him total fanboy
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Craig we were at an event awards event at the TH conference in Beijing Craig talks it where I'm talking to Craig he says that George Gilder over there and if we turn around and Craig makes
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beeline for George Gilder and of course if it says hello so why are you so overdo it German yeah I never overdo so Craig why are you such a huge fan of
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George Gilder I've loved the concept of time as money for a long time I mean it makes sense everyone talks about sort of a post-scarcity world there is no
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post-scarcity world there will never be a post-scarcity world will never have infinite lives even if we have longer lives and whatever else there's no such thing as infinite the universe isn't
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infinite so we're always going to have a constrained sort of set of scarce values and the ultimate scarce value is always going to be time you learn very quickly
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as you're growing up there's never enough time when you work hard you need more time when you study you need more time you do exams you need more time assignments more time everything comes
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down to this one thing time so reading and starting to learn when I was younger about other people putting information value and information a conic
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economics radically changed my life the fundamental time sir you certainly changed all our lives is all I can say
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so so George you know there's a video of one of your speeches out on the internet that people in this community often point to where you're giving a speech
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and you had that slide up with a picture of Craig as well as I think Jihan and metallic and you you point up to Craig and say that's Satoshi when did you draw the conclusion that Craig is Satoshi no
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I Gavin Andresen lives in Amherst which is near by me and I had a regular meetings with him and when I was writing life after Google and Gavin was
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absolutely firm that Craig was Satoshi so I never really occurred to me to doubt it until I met nick szabo who i to
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whom I devoted a couple chapters of scandal money I mean Nick Gobbo is a tremendous brilliant thinker about all these issues smart contracts and and and
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and Nick was absolutely earnestly trying to persuade me that Craig was I don't know even want to use the ugly words
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that were employed but they can be imagined and and then not I learned that vitalic who was one of my roots to the
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blockchain because Peter Todd I've invested with Peter teal and the 1517 fund and vitalic thought Craig isn't Satoshi and but it just never made sense
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to me it just and then he went out and got a thousand patents or something that would suggest some sort of knowledge of Bitcoin
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technology anyway it it just became increasingly clear and then when Klieman family sued him as toshi that and I met
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you at win-win you know your North Vietnamese tulip lady she came to one of my conferences in San Francisco and and she was very convincing that you were
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Satoshi so anyway that's how I arrived at the conclusion and not nothing that I've learned during my days in London is even slightly shaken this conviction
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that I brought here and so I think you can all safely so so and Gregg said you were Satoshi and I like triple entry stuff I'd Charles
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purses thesis that all information is triadic symbols have to be linked to objects through interpret and human
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interpret us others and the reason a I can do games so fantastically is this in game symbols and objects are the same so
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the computer speeds can necessarily shuffle the symbols and the outcomes or the game but life isn't a game the map is not the territory and and the human
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mind is central to the all creativity in the image of your Creator Craig well thank you that was quite an explanation
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Craig how did George's writings and his work Informer influence your creation of Bitcoin as I stated it's both the combination of information economics
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time being the ultimate scarce object and also then the concept of bandwidth and latency I mean there's things that people don't seem to understand there
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will be eventually near infinite bandwidth compared to what we're doing I mean we're literally doubling in the amount of bandwidth available around the world in many areas every five or six months right now not just because of
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Moore's law but because more paralyzation of many systems so although the system itself doubles the amount of bandwidth every 15 months there's more equipment more servers more connections
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more fiber so we put more down each piece of fiber we put more and more fiber at the same time and all of that is growing exponentially at the moment so the amount of bandwidth is not going
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to be the constraining factor in the future we've already got fibers that can do zettabytes worth of data the issue is going to be things like how quickly I can get it how much latency I get it how
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much search where can I find it and all of this comes back to a paid function am i further in the queue or later so again it's scarcity but at scarcity in which
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order I come into getting my information how quickly I get it and even with a near infinite about a sort of bandwidth and pipe we're still going to have ordering latency and these things so the
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future will be paying for latency paying for how quickly I can get my data how efficiently all this works George what do you think about that future he's
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describing well if bandwidth is abundant you want to waste it to achieve the rest of your goals and this is really what the key inside Craig has waste bandwidth
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to create trust a new layer of factuality and transactions across the world economy what do you think of the concept we talked about a lot at this
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conference and in our discussion of Bitcoin which is that it's the fusion of data and money together what do you think of it well that's exactly right
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that's but data Israel is ruled as in Greg has shown by the garbage in garbage out principle this idea that as data
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accumulates it gets better and better and ultimately creates a singularity where you know computation exceeds
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individual human minds I think is is just delusion big data is dumb data and and what and
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what I liked about blockchain the thing that first appealed to me about it was that it redistributes computation it counter veils the recent realization the
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morbid resent realization that is represented by the dominance of cloud computing and big data in recent era I don't think it was a mistake that was a
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phase but the blockchain again restores the link between individual human minds which are the ultimate source of
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knowledge and learning to the economy and and this is you know economies work to the extent that they maximize the
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creativity of individual human minds the whole internet is about as a connectome of about a few satellites to map to map
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the connectome of one human brain is also about a couple zettabytes in other words one human brain is connected in in
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a more complex enriched pattern than the entire global Internet and and this is of this idea that somehow the goal of
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technology is to usurp humans rather than enhance humans is the great error of Silicon Valley and that's what life after Google's about
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so George let me follow up on that so Craig as you've now heard has this vision of a meta net a better internet users powered by the Bitcoin blockchain what do you think of that I think it's
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great it's my Kazem technology so we'll have to I usually lose the naming wars I wanted to name the smartphone a teleporter and and add it it just
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somehow didn't happen so it's that's still available by the way you didn't get a trademark on it kregasm
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architecture which pretty much parallels satoshis Marinette so we'll probably matter that's better cosmic I didn't actually name it a net I mean I invented the concept and everyone
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said no that's an ugly name especially Jimmy and we're gonna call it other things so I don't get to name things either we take that power away from Greg so Craig which is of George's books is
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your favorite I still think telly calls them telecom some wire telecoms you don't get this and don't get distracted by all the company's stories there are a
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lot of companies that went broke in telecom but the theory is still all the theory of information to economics really was first expounded in telecom and I agree
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[Laughter] it shows that the electromagnetic spectrum is essentially infinite and the idea of auctioning off specific bands to
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big companies for their exclusive use has stultified the whole industry its thwarted the development of cognitive
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radios and software-defined radios and relegated them to battlefields rather than to of global communications and I think it's stole to fiying 5g and I
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predicted earlier in a cover story for Forbes that said stop the Yaak stop the auctions back in the 1990's and and that
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all action would migrate to the is em Bad's the unlicensed spectrum and I believe this is good and 80% of all communications goes through Wi-Fi
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ultimately now and it really happened Wi-Fi as part of the is M bands in the United States industrial scientific and medical and and I think that Wi-Fi sex
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is more important than 5g Wi-Fi 6 is the real new band where all the action is going to occur all the innovation and is
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going to happen it's a massive upgrade of Wi-Fi and and it uses smart radios cognitive radios and it ultimately will
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usurp all big telecoms with their exclusive control of specific bands of spectrum that they regard as somehow analogous to beachfront property
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spectrum has nothing to do with scarce resources which is part of what I was trying to also introduced today when you start enabling people to actually earn money
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on mesh networks then they're going to maintain them the problem that we had with peer-to-peer networks apart from copyright violations and whatever else the legitimate ones back in the 90s and
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early naughties was people had no way of actually getting value this idea that I got mojo points and I could say I'm special because I have more mojos than
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you that I can't trade no one really cares no one wanted to be a sort of top sort of node and and because anti leeching and whatever else and and
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community points or whatever it doesn't you don't run a machine on community points if you earn a small amount of money if you can actually build a system and a service in out-of-the-way places
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then that will actually get people acting as entrepreneurs it's all about ensuring that they have a reason to do this not just that they will see over time that everyone's leeching off them
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and they'll get fed up and stopped but hey people are leeching off me by paying me money good so we are wanting to talk about the future world that can be
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powered by Bitcoin George what are some things now that you know more about the vision we have here in the bsv ecosystem about things you'd like to see powered by Bitcoin in the future well I think if
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we create a secure internet that isn't doesn't cause paranoia across the whole world economies and a kind of new
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fragmentation of Commerce I think that's a huge achievement and the development of a new global money that plays the
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role of goals will be an equally important achievement and and that's the beginning that's the new platform from which all the surprising
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creativity of human inventors and entrepreneurs will flourish so I think that's that's ample let's that Keith
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gives you plenty to do and so how long do you think that'll take well in an information economy things can change as
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fast as Minds can change and I feel that there's a tidal change of minds across the world related to the blockchain and
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distributed and peer-to-peer of solutions to both money and security and I think it can it's happening now it's happening in this room and it's gonna
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keep happening for the rest of my life anyway and thrust of yours so Craig you obviously have a lot of thoughts about what can be powered by
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Bitcoin how it can be accomplished while we have George here if you could ask him for some advice about how to shape the future of course of your work what would you ask him I would probably look at
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asking you more about where you think information economics will will go and how we actually educate people to that concept how we actually move away and get not just a few individuals like
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ourselves to understand this but really it's not getting government officials economists and people in universities to start really understanding that there's one one true scarcity that is time and
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and I think one economics has to be taught in a different way I mean Milton Friedman got the Nobel Prize for his worst mistake he imagined that that
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money should be the supply of money should be closely controlled and its price should rise up and down and I believe that that's exactly gets it
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wrong the value of money should be pegged to time and the volume of money can grow as as fast as entrepreneurs can
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invent new uses for it as fast as entrepreneurs are willing to incurred that to launch new ventures of the money supply can expand and during the
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industrial revolution in the United States the money supply increased a hundred and sixty three times in less
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than a century that is and all these meager calculations of how fast money can grow if it's tied to a specific value during
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an entire hundred years the value of the dollar and gold didn't change a bit during the two hundred years of the Industrial Revolution in Britain
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launched by Isaac Newton when he established the connection of the pound to the Sterling to the gold standard that was Isaac Newton's greatest
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accomplishment I believe he hacked gold you know as alchemy was his effort to hack gold and he proved that gold couldn't be hacked and really made the
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gold standard a triumph and and money vastly expanded and bred it Britain it fueled the entire world economy with for
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200 years issuing consoles at 3% a year and if the key key thing is to have money tied to the in actual ball
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scarcity which time represents I'm gonna ask each of you the same question now which is if you could be in charge of the world economy what change would you
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make with Bitcoin okay I actually got asked for an article basically with the elections coming up what five changes I would make as
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president like I could put in I got I did that today and I would actually ensure that there are ways of tying all of the financial crime whether we're
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talking about drug dealers terrorists anything you're talking about whether we're talking about banksters the guys who basically take fiduciary custodial
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money and gambled with it on the foreign exchange markets and I would tie it back so that every one of them can be raised and stopped whether we're talking
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about money laundering for terrorism or arms dealing or people smuggling or sex crimes all of that comes down to being able to get their money and hide it
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whether we're talking about foreign corrupt governments dictators any of these people all of their crimes happen because they can launder their money and if we can have a system that enables
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privacy and good control so the average person can have a normal oven life without worrying about their privacy being breached yet simultaneously stop
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these large criminal groups that's one thing I would do I prefer couching it
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maybe in a more positive way I think you know I think the key thing is Bitcoin as fee is not a light cash it's decisively
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better than cash because it gives individuals the ability of attestation it's not just that it stops them from committing crimes
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it stops governments or big cartels from charging an individual for some crime he didn't commit it allows him to have an
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immutable unimpeachable record to prove that he didn't embezzle the money or didn't avoid the taxes or didn't conduct the illegal transactions so it's a
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positive thing it's better than cash it off it offers the anonymity where it's needed for transactions like cash but on
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the other hand it offers a test station so you can prove that you aren't guilty and and I think it's a big advance individual rights and privacy because of
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that feature that positive of feature so George you know we were talking the other day but when you first learned about Bitcoin and first discovered it is there something about Bitcoin that
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you've always wondered about or confused about a one clarified that now that you have Craig sitting right here you want to ask him well why is it capped you
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mean the 21 million supply okay so there is actually two point 1 quadrillion tokens now it is actually a commodity token system but if it was going to be
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not capped then that becomes problematic over time but where people go wrong is each of these tokens can then represent other things so I can tokenize other
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assets using tokens so in effect I can create many other forms of tradable currencies with that form of scarcity as
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the base but if I was able to reset the amount of money if I was able to track or trace all of this then I'd have to say they'd been some way of I'd need
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some way of measuring what I'm going to change and then I start becoming a central bank so the only way I could figure out to do this was to have a set amount of currency a set a number of
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tokens that I issued back in 2009 that get distributed in a set way because if I change that if I play with the formula then it's not distributed anymore it
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comes back to Craig controls the system so how do you make sure that craig doesn't control the system you take the rules away from me you set them in stone you say this is my system this is how it
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runs if you want to be part of it you know how it runs I can't change I'm creating a system with immutable protocol rules and the only way I can do
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that is as I've done it so otherwise basically if I have a system that keeps changing the amount then I have a system that effectively allows people to
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manipulate and I couldn't solve how people would manipulate systems without setting it so they couldn't what happens if the
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entrepreneurs generate demand for a hundred and sixty-two times more money to fund their creations and inventions
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what you're missing is the number of tokens can be increased in velocity and use so using payment channels then I can
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start effectively a near infinite number of transactions between individuals now everyone thinks the old Nakamoto payment channel is actually not secure because
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if you're going you could send out part of the transaction but what they're forgetting is you can actually have that go both ways so I can have an increase in the amount I'm paying George but
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rather than refund where it becomes insecure he can give me some tokens back or even chain those token transactions and we can keep doing that same process until we set all the channel allowing us
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to have an ongoing an updatable channel that every 10 minutes we can have billions of transactions billions of exchangers well but but what happens to that why doesn't all them money
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Hodel at the bottom layer why doesn't it migrate to the bottom layer where you have this rigorous restriction on the number of total units I have a number of
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units which are quite large but each of those units can be differentiated in different ways there are token so you can actually value an individual Satoshi as different things and a few people
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started doing this in the early days that was part of what aetherium and master coined and everything wanted to do unfortunately they got restricted and locked out of being able to do that so if you want to have a different money
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supply you can build something on top of Bitcoin with all of the capabilities of Bitcoin using Bitcoin as the sort of commodity exchange layer and then increase all
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these other things so you could we could have had a theorem on top of Bitcoin without it being broken we could have had eventually US dollar on top of Bitcoin and I hope to see that and
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everyone goes oh no us all well I actually think that'd be a good thing imagine US dollar and pound on top of Bitcoin with an immutable stable ledger of how much value they have compared to
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bit join over time we'll see how that actually applies Craig I'll flip the question is there anything about any of your jizz writings or work that you were have the opportunity to ask him about
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now that you're confused about or one clarification on I don't know if I'm confused about them or whatever else I don't agree with some of your bits on
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III Ahmet cetera I think it mirrors an article that everyone knows the term but miss applies it from 1996 which was the wild wild web they were talking about
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Usenet and other like basically a Redux of the penny share scams and the postal stamp scams of earlier eras and what
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we're seeing in a lot of ico is the same thing this whole idea we don't need any regulation well you can create a regulated ico you can create something that actually works in all of this the
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problem I see with icos is they're analogous to a web I pee oh and we're by POS were a big thing in the early internet days where people would basically create distributed web
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companies which were partnerships and give out shares to everyone and all this stuff and there were tokens just you called them different things and there was even a Simpsons episode where Bart
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was running his own internet company in IP owing and they had a toilet paper roll and like the guy was pulling out shares out of the toilet paper roll and Bart said I
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need to go and he just pulls out their shares and goes off to the toilet giving an idea of what people thought about all of this before the dot-com crash because the value of a company is not whether
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you have an idea it's how you execute it it's how you deliver it's how you actually build something of value to people so going up there and going I've got an idea I can have this rideshare taxi company that allows people to
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basically have no controls or responsibility so that occasionally women can get raped in the back of cars and I can go not my fault you can say that's a great idea and that's probably
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why they lost they're about to lose their license and whatever else here in London so anything you want to say in
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response towards and I feel like you have something in well I'm I'm still I'm still a little confused because of the know the whole if you create money as a
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commodity that people can prosper by holding you nullify it as money it can't function as money that's right money is
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as measured by its utility not by its market cap always coin market cap stuff is is really a delusion and in it and it
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confuses people I think that it's good that Satoshi version doesn't have the market cap of coin market cap of BTC or
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whatever it's that's a good sign you want you don't want money to be a commodity or an asset a speculative asset you want it to be a measuring
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stick and that's I just hope that this industry understands this fundamental principle because if you create money that people want a hole you just
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contradict the whole purpose of the endeavor you nullify your currency as money I agree what what people fail to understand is it comes down to usage
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velocity needs to increase a new stage to increase and all these are sort of arguments going you can't do that with Bitcoin that would be wrong you're spamming the network that's why we have fees I said in the early day like
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someone said what if we put a lady Gaga video on on the blockchain and my answer to that was that's why I put fees that's simple if they if you want to pay that
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much money to have Lady gaga remembered forever go for it so as we wrap up this conversation I have a question for each of you if you could be the other person
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for one day what would you do George he could be Craig for a day that'd be pretty great twenty old are you cray
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I'd win a lot of races I'd be rich I'd be running seventeen minute five K's again he doesn't he doesn't run that fast Craig what about you if you could
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be George for a day what book should I write yeah what book should be right thing I would go out and basically connect to all your contacts and teach
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them the truth about Bitcoin and blockchain and how it can actually help the world all right my last question is the audience have questions sure would you take a few audience questions anyone have a question I can time take a couple
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questions yes man in the front here I'll repeat okay Regan when asked to explain the Red Sox that he likes to wear Craig tell them about why you wear Red Sox Red Sox are
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lucky and if you look at Chinese and Asian culture you have red is this color a Hong that supposedly the gods don't notice you and fate doesn't notice you
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and whack you down if you're wearing red it's it's this thing that that's why they wear it on New Year's and everything like that because while you're in red the fates don't seem to notice you so much and
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smack you but it's it's totally wrong I can tell you I keep wearing red and all this crap happens now he has a red sock groupies anyone got a question for Jorge
00:37:53
more questions yes okay if you were to bootstrap the system J's I'm a Bitcoin right would you have a cap on the supply the 20 more yes you're asking Jorge
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no why not no I fixed the price you want you what you don't want the price to be changing in response to conditions as if
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it's a commodity money can't be part of what it measures if money is a commodity it suffers all the circularity of self
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referential logic that girdle and Turing and all the great computer scientists exposed money is dependent s have an
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Oracle outside itself to allow it to become an effective measuring stick and that's really the challenge I saw a hand over there disruptive side there's one problem with
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who then determines what prices who determines what the basket of goods are and that's the problem with central banks right now so I'm just saying as soon as you you do that you you then
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have to say well this is valuable versus this is variable and when central banks do that well they say right now we think this is what people buy and this is what a computer is that the average person
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wants and in five years time it'll be utterly different and they'll go we were wrong and they'll change it so I then have to become an issuer and over time I have to keep adjusting the system and
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have to keep tinkering and youth you fix the amount of Bitcoin 21 million units you could fix the price of Bitcoin don't
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you can't just as you can't change the number of units now you could have decided to fix the price as as I don't
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have that solution well with a gold is the successful example throughout human history I think digital gold which was what you endeavored to create what well
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did you know that you wanted to create digital gold no oh okay I said I will go I mean I I didn't say digital gold that's all these other people so what other people say now later after the
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fact yeah okay I'll take one more question that general yes shout it aloud and I'll report time is okay I'll repeat the question so dr. Wright said earlier that he hopes to see a US dollar or British Pound on the
00:41:00
Bitcoin blockchain what's the likelihood you think that's gonna happen on bsv and I think you want to know what it's going to take to get there generally well I don't really see any other options
00:41:12
there's no other system that does it I mean and nasty and I'm patented all the solutions I mean yes the the Fed could actually still pay me for licensing the patents but in a way
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that's actually still a good thing because that brings a whole lot of money into bsv and the American dollar still subsidizes Bitcoin so I mean you've got an option of them using Bitcoin and
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scaling and doing fed coin or they can use my technology and then they can subsidize Bitcoin I don't mind either way all right what's one last thing you'd like to say to each other
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George congratulations for this wonderful conference and for your incredible historic achievement Craig I thank you at all and Craig what about
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you thank you for giving me inspiration and I mean I hope I can do that to other people too because I mean I hope I can take the inspiration I got in my youth
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when I was young and pass it on to other people and I know a number of guys that I work with in their 20s and things like that and I hope they run round and they spend their life doing something amazing
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and I hope to be in your position the same way sitting here with someone who's been inspired with me in 30 years time speaking of that I thought it appropriate that we take Craig's book
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Satoshi Vision the writings of Craig Wright the art of Bitcoin and I think you should autograph a copy for mister gilder [Applause]
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time is up hahahaha while he's doing that let's give them both a wonderful round of applause stay here
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you
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