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foreign foreign foreign foreign foreign thank you foreign foreign uh you're talking about organic

00:16:14

approaches to Governors yesterday good day matter first welcome back who's ready to continue these awesome talks there we go I don't know if we can possibly top yesterday but we're

00:16:32

definitely going to give it a shot Dr Nick here is going to get us started with demystifying dows so if you'd like to lead us straight into it we've got some work to do

00:16:45

afternoon everyone um really wonderful to be here um I just love being around people who are Dow pills right um we're a rare breed at the moment

00:16:58

um and I kind of wanted this talk to be I didn't know quite know where to phrase this but I'm going to do something I don't normally do and talk a little bit about my background and and try to lens it into a bit of learning theory I spent

00:17:11

one of my great passions for many years was education still is um and yeah so I want to talk a little bit about you are the people who are going to Steward us through the kind of Dow wave

00:17:23

when it happens um so I wanted to sort of lend this into this idea of imagining Dows like imagination being a sort of an important part of what we're doing or what we can nurture

00:17:35

so what I wanted to do to start with a little bit of like where we're at the problems with Dows at the moment um talk about Dow Journeys and I want you to reflect a little bit on your Dow journey and what the prerequisite

00:17:49

knowledge you picked up on the way to get you there um the importance of imagination collective learning and I'm going to present sort of a couple of ideas for helping you frame Dows to other people one of our jobs is

00:18:02

communicating this stuff uh to people haven't quite got it yet but when you get it um I think you're in and then you stay in and then I want us to imagine this kind of Dow takeoff moment there's going to

00:18:13

be a point where this just really kicks off and we and something magical happens and Dows start really transforming the world and it will happen in a way that is fundamentally a takeoff people talk

00:18:26

about AI takeoff at the moment there's all these AI safety weirdos who tell us the AIS are going to turn into gods and and turn us all into paper clips but actually I think what's more likely is there's going to be a human takeoff

00:18:38

moment when we crack core coordination problems and that's what I want us to imagine a bit today so yeah problems with Dows um let's be honest they're mostly terrible

00:18:49

um and we've got some core problems to do right we've got some poor problems to fix most of them we fall prey to coordination failure because we haven't cracked the mechanisms yet we haven't cracked social consistent consensus

00:19:02

systems we don't crack the right mental models yet most of them aren't really Dows and one of the things I want to talk about later is like what where does a dow not be a dow like when when does it go to zero as

00:19:14

a doubt when when can you really not call it a Dao I've heard people call an office a dow uh like you know a telegram chat a Discord chat you know it's when when when is a dow or Dow

00:19:27

um public failures now I don't think this is a bad thing actually like that one of the things that happens in the Dow space is everything's perfectly transparent um if you could see the squabbles that

00:19:39

happen inside large institutions on on like a forum and everyone in the world could see it and laugh at you then people would think companies and institutions were a bad idea um so the transparency is there but it's

00:19:50

it's kind of it's difficult to sort of um defend a lot of the Dow activity at the moment there's some really terrible decision making um we've not cracked like effective descent decentralized decision making

00:20:03

yet so I'd like to talk a little bit about that VCS hate them um for good reason um they like Dallas have this huge potential to disrupt venture capital I was like super excited about crypto in

00:20:16

2017-18 for crowdfunding I I still think icos are great but what they were missing was decentralized crowdfunding is how we can bootstrap stuff outside of the institution to get we can do this without VCS that's why they don't like

00:20:29

it this empowers them and empowers us um lawyers love them um and by that I mean I speak to lawyers about Dows quite frequently these days and they're super interested um and they say yeah very very

00:20:42

interesting doubts and I think oh good and they're like oh no when you know like when the doctor says you're interesting that's interesting that's that's basically the way they look at it um so we've got this huge PR problem

00:20:54

right we're at the moment the the sentiment of dows is absolutely in the pits sometimes even amongst the taoists right some of the like the harshest critics are the taoists who who kind of like they've had a go at it from and

00:21:07

they just got a bit despondent and down in the dumps about it and just feel like we're never going to get there and the bit I want to get at most is like they're conceptually challenging right we've not quite even defined what they are yet I actually think that's quite a

00:21:20

good thing um but it makes them difficult to understand and some people find struggle with it and this is the kind of context has anyone see this um this is an nft release by a guy

00:21:32

called d-god very popular uh this is from the white paper um and it says um season three of gods is dumbed down to communicate hey we think you are brainless Buy and Hold this and it

00:21:45

actually says we strive for a community of low brain use um and this is kind of the market right we're we're challenging um the crypto space is just exceptionally Dom right we're in the

00:21:58

hamster racing phase of crypto at the moment just when I think it can't get any Dumber we find new depths so with and yeah and we're trying to do something that's like really conceptually challenging so like what

00:22:10

how do we move past that I wanted to lend in on this a moment of imagination endows and managing imagining dows this was a message that says we have six days to acquire 20 million dollars to buy the

00:22:22

US Constitution and this is of course Constitution Dao and and basically this is in rewind November 2021 and people thought yeah we're going to buy the US Constitution

00:22:34

and thought that's a stupid idea but nevertheless um people did in fact I think they raised something like 40 million dollars in the end about 30 million dollars at 42 everyone Apes into it it was a total

00:22:47

mess uh they didn't have any liquidity everyone it was just like I've tried obviously they had an auction that was their Max bid was fully doxed so the that guy from Citadel Capital just front run there it was all a bit of a mess but

00:22:59

what it did um was trigger people's imaginations and all of a sudden everyone was like oh my God that was going to be the next big thing right and that and that's that moment it created a model people to

00:23:10

think that's what Dows can do now this was a particular kind of Dow and people thought they were what I call a buy a thing Dow that become very popular for a bit um and so yeah like several months later we had a kind of

00:23:23

um Dow summer of sorts where you know everyone got super excited about Dows and people were aping into Dows VCS got wrecked on decentralized to-do lists um and and and and then everyone got

00:23:35

wrecked shortly after and that's where we're at now um so really what I want us to we we saw that moment right when that we captured the collective imagination so how do we

00:23:47

get back there and Imagination is incredibly powerful thing because people like to model their future they people like just to think into a future that's better than now we've been talking about this meta crisis problem where we've got

00:23:59

crises on crises and and just Everything feels like it's collapsing and failing and it is right and people are struggling and people can't afford to pay their rent and and things are really really bad and I actually do think that

00:24:12

there's a real optimism and hope in this movement that can be very powerful and it's trying to I want you to think about how we can get there people want something better people want a new future of work people want greater

00:24:24

agency people want autonomy all of these things can be provided by a new form of organization new tools for coordination but in order to be able to imagine in this space you need the prerequisite thinking

00:24:37

and yeah this is just an exercise for you just do this with people later on when you're having a drink and chilling out it's like just think about your Dow Journey a bit what was the moment that Dow pilled you

00:24:49

um what was your Dow origin story um I had a very sort of particular moment I had a couple actually where I just had this overwhelming feeling that I just had to be a part of this this was a moment I was just in and I there's

00:25:02

times when I just like really resent this because I just don't want to do it because it's just like it's pure pain at times um but I can't help it now I'm in that's there's just like it feels too important to back out of

00:25:14

um but in reflecting on my journey recently I thought actually the pre the thing my journey was like had all these pieces to it that was necessary for me to get that moment that most people just won't have

00:25:27

um so I'll tell you a little bit about what I did I'm a stem background I did 10 years of physics I ended up with a PhD in physics um sort of researching ended up in condensed matter science everyone got

00:25:40

super excited about superconductors that was sadly never going to be um but then I moved into um number Theory and cryptography because I got a job as a lecturer teaching cryptography which is where I

00:25:52

discovered Bitcoin in the early days um then I sort of moved into learning theory complexity science organizational research and I designed a decentralized organization inside an institution this

00:26:05

looks a lot like what we call a meta down now with sub-dials and I actually built this like it still runs to this day um and it sort of had proposal structures and funding bits and everything like that ended up at the

00:26:17

London College of fashion in the art worlds and Associate Dean um and then when the Dow happened um which that that's when it sort of broke into my bubble again I'd sort of lost track of cryptography for a bit and

00:26:30

then the Dow happened and it blew up and it was a complete disaster but I thought this is going to change the world and that was the moment where I thought we can take decentralized organization truly autonomous self-organizing organization onto the open internet and

00:26:43

something magical can happen and from that point on I went into sort of researching dowels that were very early at that point but into token economics mechanism design and just you know 80 hours a week for for several

00:26:55

years because I just can't help it I just can't stop doing this so like how how can we get people into that but when you think about it all of those things like it made me realize that you can't expect people to have this kind of weird

00:27:08

academic journey across stem and organization and a number theory in cryptography it just just people don't have that right so how can we move people through um

00:27:21

um and support people into into picking these things up so there's a bit of learning theory that I think can be quite helpful there's one of the core things that it's called just leveling right so basics of curriculum

00:27:33

design you think about the the people that you're talking to and you can expect a sort of level of cognition depending on how deep into a subject they are right and depending where in the world you are

00:27:46

this is this is basically What's called the framework for higher education qualifications in UK England and Wales but basically you've got these different levels of learning and so you've got like Primary School

00:27:58

High School level one two a levels we call them in the UK which is like level three four five and six is degree level and really you wouldn't expect people to engage at like five and six if they haven't gone through the lower levels

00:28:11

but actually what was stuck with in Dows is actually their kind of Masters level PhD level concept really because it's a brand new emerging field at The Cutting Edge of a discipline that doesn't really exist yet the book hasn't really been

00:28:24

written so we're expecting people to engage in this space and um I think we've got to like find ways and Care much more about education and and essentially start to learn bits from pedagogy

00:28:36

so think about that journey and think how you can construct uh movement a sort of experience of dows that you can take people through these things that people can sail through them but everything

00:28:49

about your message should be structured and sometimes this in the learning theory is called scaffolding when you build up the building blocks from the ground up um and in particular is what there's a really interesting idea and if anyone

00:29:01

wants to talk to me about this later we can do called threshold Concepts and I've sort of experienced this with Dows which is and this idea of a threshold concept is once you're learning it it changes your whole paradigm shift to your brain and all of a sudden you look

00:29:14

at the world in entirely different world like it's a threshold that you cross over and some of you might have experienced this with dowels when you've gone right I get it they're a mess now but this could really be powerful and change the

00:29:26

world um so yeah and think about visualizing this is um one of uh the models I've been using basically nice and simple and it's using the kind of classic

00:29:38

scalability blockchain scalability trilemma but understanding it as decentralization autonomy and organization I mentioned earlier that dowels kind of like to stop being Dows all of a sudden

00:29:51

um but really what I've I get really angry at some lawyers because they keep trying to to create this very specific um definition of a Dao some of which are

00:30:03

basically a multi-sig it must be legally wrapped it must do transactions that and it's basically describing a multi-sig and what they're trying to do is collapse this in a rather authoritarian way into something they can codify right

00:30:18

because they can codify them they can regulate it but actually dowels are a much more complex and dynamic concept than that you can like imagine all of these are a Continuum like so decentralization for me is basically the

00:30:31

diffusion of power right the degree to which power in a system is decentralized across its state holders now that can be like extremely decentralized where almost every actor in the system has an

00:30:43

equal agency in the system to have these different things now where I think and and essentially you can have the complete opposite where you have almost like an authoritarian system where there's one guy in a multi-sig that controls the whole thing and in fact

00:30:55

dowels have this potential to be more centralized than any company could ever dream of being because there's one guy with a management key that controls the the world basically so imagine this decentralization it's

00:31:08

like where do you pick that right that where do you you can design this to think about how decentralized you want to be now I've said the I've got a sort of document this I can share with people if people are interested in it but each

00:31:22

one of these that they disappear right there's a point where they just snap and disappear your D disappears when um the units are operating as a single mind so let's say you've got a three of

00:31:34

five multi-sig and all the three people are in the same team right and they're all operating under a sort of authority chain that's a single mind that D disappears right so and that this could

00:31:46

even happen with a token system where there's hundreds of people but if they're all in the same group thing can fundamentally just do whatever one person says your D disappears and you're not down anymore your o disappears when you just stop

00:31:59

doing stuff right when you hit coordination failure and everything stops right you're no longer a dow if you're not organizing and that has varying degrees of of quality of how much you're moving forward and how much

00:32:10

organizing you're doing and the a is the really interesting one um a being autonomy you're almost it's for me it's about your ability to self-govern

00:32:22

and you can only really discover that if someone tries to capture you so you can only discover your your degree of autonomy to how much effort it takes to capture you

00:32:35

um so it's really one that's rather elusive but you only really find out if you get a letter from the SEC or something right and if someone tries to shut you down if they can't shut you down so tornado crashes are cash is a

00:32:48

really interesting example of this um it got Max robbed by by like the the feds right you know you're under emergency Powers special designated person this is what you know we brought

00:33:00

this into stock terrorists after 9 11 and you know you're on that list now and in fact like if someone sends you some um money from that you're rugged as well and you have to go and you know talk to

00:33:13

the US government every year prove you're not a terrorist it still worked right it's still functioned it's it's actually eventually got kind of wrecked by governance attack um and its own system sort of failed

00:33:25

but you can design you can imagine this as a parameter space and you know there's some things that don't require High degrees of autonomy there's some things that you know don't need to be that decentralized and can

00:33:38

have more more localized power structures within them um so yeah if anyone's interested in going through that with their own Dow um just hit me up at some point it's a nice psychedelic colors this

00:33:51

doesn't really work um but yeah this is this is me getting at this kind of takeoff moment as one of my Twitter friends last night posted this thing and it was from deep down which is a kind of like stats tracking

00:34:04

thing um you probably know it and it said like look we're not in a bear Market anymore in Dows because the proposal numbers have gone through the roof and it looks like the Dow takeoff moment right

00:34:15

there's a point where all of a sudden dowels just start flourishing there's Bloom on the internet right and everyone's just like not only you're just imagining Downs they're doing doubts and it goes insane right just like all of a sudden and

00:34:28

that's what we're waiting for sadly it wasn't that if you go and look at these things the top four by um Dows by proposals are like pancake swap um nonsensical snapshots eight is the

00:34:41

second most um yeah Popular by proposals um decentraland which has all sorts of like proposal for like move one token

00:34:52

um and then nonsensical snapshot seven um so unfortunately we're not quite hitting the Dow takeoff moment yet but you know and this is what kind of what happens when you you create metrics that people can gain let's just keep rattling

00:35:06

through proposals um but the chart looks like this right and that's the moment that we're waiting for when um we crack certain things so what do we think that's going to be I think we're

00:35:19

going to have a constitution down moment but instead of it being just one idea let's buy the Constitution and it was quickly followed on by Assange Dao which was a kind of also a massive mess but um

00:35:30

um and that got picked up by Chinese meme coiners it was a bit of a mess but like basically we had one idea that captured the public imagination the next one will be hundreds of thousands um of ideas all happen at once and we

00:35:42

have this takeoff moment and I just want you to sort of think about this throughout the weekend and talk to your friends about it but what is it that's going to make that moment happen and one of the things I think we're going to crack these templates

00:35:55

um where we've got these Frameworks that that minimize harm but maximize um non-zero-sum interactions so at the moment most people just get robbed on crypto like 90 I found some stats not

00:36:07

long ago 97.7 of uni swap tokens are rug pulls 97.7 like if you even go near a token you're 99 you're almost certain to get rugged and that just can't happen that just can't keep going on and I

00:36:21

actually think Dows are the solution to it because they've changed the trust model around the token economy um so yeah what do we like we are going to be the stewards when that moment happens like it's going to be our

00:36:34

responsibility to trying to take that movement in the direction as we can um so I'm just going to sort of finalize here by sort of throwing out some ideas of of where we go next

00:36:47

um one of the things I'm building at the moment is the kind of core infrastructure that minimize that largely aiming to minimize harm to minimize risks so people can invest in in dowels and get involved in Dows and

00:37:00

just not lose their money right to change the trust models around that so we need a much greater focus on the token economics around the system um we need better mechanisms to allow us

00:37:11

to push deeper into the decentralization space I'm going to be talking about that um uh pretty soon um and we need better tools for decentralized decision making um so I think quadratic voting is

00:37:24

particularly quite interesting on that for for driving nuance and reputation systems and so on I think AI endows is going to be exceptionally interesting we're at the moment looking at uh using our voting

00:37:38

tools to capture the State of Mind of a dow and then train using a low rank adaptive model so an AI can represent a Dao right so what does the Dow think you

00:37:49

can ask the AI and it will say the Dow thinks this with a 72 probability right and there's a point now where you can start to push past coordination and having to go back to votes all the time because you can just ask the AI

00:38:02

um and then people can say well we don't like that but if it's okay we just let it ride um education I think is I'm going to try and really focus come back into the

00:38:13

education space a lot more this year um and I'm just putting a sort of call out there for like if if you're interested in doing educational interventions on dowels and you want to get involved in that drop me a message

00:38:26

um but yeah generally just do education stuff take more care about explaining things from a from a root level DSi is going to be very interesting slightly worried about it at the moment

00:38:38

because it's already been captured by a16z they've created this new mechanism for like IP nfts that they call them and it's really we're like wait we're outside the institution we're outside the evil universities that are doing

00:38:51

everything that only do what they want to do and we're free from it all libertarian dream but actually it's just another mechanism for um just removing the institution and capturing science at the root level but

00:39:05

um I do think um this is going to be where we start to see really impactful dowels where this really focused well-funded research happening in in decentralized Labs that superconducting thing was super

00:39:17

interesting um because you had people like experimenting in their garages trying to make this thing well that that moment of us all going around on Arc div and look at reading papers and stuff super

00:39:31

interesting I do think citizen science could really kick off with Dows um protocol Dao's arbitrum had a go at this and kind of really messed it up the initiation by making their first

00:39:43

proposal of fatal complete but all these l2s are super centralized bass is basically like an AWS server um it's very surprised that coinbase are that based actually but basically what

00:39:57

we're going need is Dows at the protocol level to start hard forking essentially between different on-chain infrastructure systems moving to decentralized sequences and so on

00:40:08

um unruggable tokens um the you know a16z had this can't be evil narrative um which largely just was never happened but it that's the idea right the idea is that we can have trust minimized systems

00:40:21

and we can do that with decentralized governance um there's two ideas I'm very keen on working on at the moment which is this idea of emergent governance the problem is normally proposals are created by the

00:40:33

team right and that's um that fundamentally centralizes things so how can we decentralize The Proposal structure um and and make it much much more of an emergent bottom or process so proposals

00:40:46

emerge they aren't just written by a single party or a handful of parties um as semantic governance is an idea I've been working about semantically drawing uh the ring around what this Dow

00:40:58

can do in no organization in the world do you have this carte blanche proposal structure where everyone can propose anything that the organization does um but we do endows right there's just like anyone could propose anything

00:41:11

generally as long as you pass the proposal threshold um so I think we need to start much clearly defining the scope of what a dow does and what it doesn't do and we can do that by essentially drawing a semantic line around what we do and

00:41:24

don't do and finally like reputation systems I've been waiting for this to happen for about four or five years um but I do I'm starting to sense people starting to take it seriously now and

00:41:36

that allows you to build a kind of I these Unchained meritocracies where you you kind of filter out um you know too many cooks problem you know everyone's got too many ideas there's actually a key decision-making

00:41:49

idea called garbage can decision making which is where everyone just throws their ideas in the garbage can and then it actually kind of works but you need filtering systems and I think reputation is where we get that

00:42:01

um so yeah that's it um if you're interested in what I'm doing at factory down feel free to hit me up at any point um we're trying to build like a modular system uh where people can bring down tools from all over the space and and

00:42:15

create a kind of composable way of setting up Dows um but that's it from me thank you very much everyone [Applause] um I don't know if we've got time for questions no [Applause]

00:42:28

uh no time for questions but uh maybe an emergent system would be to suggest we all huddle around him later and ask ask all of our bestow and desires

00:42:40

um great dive into it I think it's a very uh very wonderful to appreciate good education and that uh different levels of Education are available to different degrees depending on where you

00:42:52

are luckily we're all at meta Fest so we get the highest level here and uh get to carry it out if uh if that talk on Dows got you all uh roused up Beyond asking him questions we actually have a dow

00:43:04

track starting the workshop so we're going to be doing deep Dives on Dow design and how you can start your dream down so if anybody wants to contribute to that or go learn themselves feel free

00:43:17

to go check it out if you are maybe more interested in non-dowle things D5 dude is actually coming up to perhaps teach you how you you can reach your defy

00:43:30

dreams everybody give a big round of applause for a defy dude [Applause] actually uh Dr Nick has promised to be hovering

00:44:43

around the buffet at lunchtime if anybody wants to learn learn how to deeper dowel hi everyone how are we doing today can we can you hear me hello hello okay okay cool hi everyone

00:44:59

uh I'm D faidoon so nice to see you all here and be here today at manifest uh today I'm going to talk about why defy with D5 so I'm not necessarily gonna just cover everything about D5 but more so

00:45:13

the culture or the The Narrative or I guess why exactly we want to Define why it's important the journey so far where we're headed and all that good stuff so I'm much less prepared than Dr Nick

00:45:24

here's presentation was very awesome so I'm going to be reading from my iPad kind of looking back up to you so not the most professional uh but I appreciate your time and uh so who am I I'm defy dude this is my

00:45:37

little guy on Twitter uh you can notice the resemblance here a little bit maybe I don't use my real name but if you've seen me in person you might know my real name you can ask me it's it's not secret but I don't really need to identify by

00:45:50

my real name I guess uh who I am I'm more of a crypto native internet nerd introvert you'll probably see me in a corner later on uh I'm an animal lover I saw that dog going around I have my own dog I loved

00:46:02

dogs love all animals uh born and raised near Chicago American uh not a patriot but an American um always curious kind of why I'm in crypto I always you know curious about what the next thing is uh started out in

00:46:15

D5 I always love D5 I worked at kyber Network during the Ico kind of Boom 2017-2018 helped out there on the community side uh Ave as well Community side have always been Community side and like

00:46:27

social side of stuff and now recently working on build a DOT Dev co-founder there with my partner we just started a few months ago launched and project Discovery platforms so that is

00:46:39

more who I am and what is defy so D5 is a decentralized fan first of all raise your hands who's familiar with defy

00:46:51

okay and uh of those people like would you rate your skill above a seven out of 10 like if you had to say you know more or less you know how confident are you I guess would you rate your D5 skills as a seven out of ten or

00:47:04

higher raise your hand again maybe okay that's perfect okay no no problem that's perfect um so yeah I'm going to kind of cover the all of it I guess but so Defy is a

00:47:17

decentralized finance uh by definition it's kind of reducing the need for centralized power parties uh you know your bank governments all that good stuff I mean replacing it with things like blockchain or web3 or whatever

00:47:29

um reduces their power literally any form of Finance I guess existing with some spectrum of decentralization so defy itself is literally decentralized financed uh D and Phi it was coined out

00:47:41

of a telegram group like years ago it was fighting against open finance the term and and one so um people these days I think they tend to associate D5 with like Advanced really complex systems like smart people

00:47:57

stuff big brain stuff you know if you go on Twitter you're seeing all this like Mev stuff and how it relates to D5 or all these pools and really complex systems and uh you know kind of the this talk is to remind all of us I guess

00:48:10

that that isn't necessarily what Defy is um you know defy one of the most core premises of crypto is still D5 sending money peer-to-peer this is D5 so I think it's very important that we like

00:48:23

remember that we don't need to um yeah have defy as this really complex oh big brain mask stuff pool to staking Farm like all this stuff it can be as simple as sending money to a friend

00:48:36

um and not needing a bank to do so so it's defies a movement uh as well so let me get lost in my notes here a little bit um

00:48:48

yep so uh yeah we are all kind of a part of the movement even if you're not a big fan of D5 invest in defy or anything like that you're in crypto chances are you're helping support the movement in

00:49:00

some shape or form and you know whether or not you need to defy or not might depend on your situation so is anyone here from Venezuela Argentina uh

00:49:13

a couple hands that's great so I am going to speak a very briefly on those I'm very ignorance on it so if I say anything wrong please correct me or feel free to chime in

00:49:25

um but starting with Venezuela is kind of a golden example and one that's often referred to uh for why we defy with Z5 so as you can see by the chart here just the inflation rate absolutely insane like yearly inflation rate it's you

00:49:37

might as well not even put a number on it because whatever your paycheck is going to be next month's it's going to be worthless um so there was a 2018 like New York Post time or New York Post article about

00:49:50

how toilet paper was worth more than than the currency and like I don't think people are actually using the currency as toilet paper but it just goes to show how bad that can be when your money is worth less than toilet paper and Manu

00:50:02

some of you might know Manu from doing good a really good guy couldn't come out today uh last conference or I was out with him he was literally handing out Venezuelan bills just as for fun so

00:50:14

um the next one is Argentina so similar to um Venezuela but just not as bad I don't know what's up with the color here but um the the yearly inflation inflation rate is up to over a hundred percent so

00:50:27

uh you know if you're every year your paycheck is getting inflated like if inflation's 100 your money's worth like half as less how you know what do you do your salary is not the same it's always

00:50:39

changing so in Argentina we've we've seen a big group of people that I mean the community in Argentina is just huge the D5 Community we've seen them converting their their salaries right

00:50:50

away whether or not they're in crypto or whether or not they're interested in defy they're converting it because even with the volatility in crypto whether it goes up and down 10 20 30 that still beats this insane inflation um and so for that's the reason why some

00:51:03

of them might defy but obviously it's different depending on on where you live um there are other situations too this is okay again you can't read it but it's a famous thing by Satoshi on the Bitcoin forums December 11th 2010 sorry I should

00:51:17

speak closer here but uh he he talks about Wikileaks who recently accepted Bitcoin as a donation because Wikileaks was they were pushed out of PayPal pushed out of every bank they used they basically had no way to turn to accept

00:51:31

donations and if you don't know Wikileaks they basically like share confidential information everything governments don't want to be shared and all that good stuff uh so Satoshi says it would have been nice to get this attention in any other context

00:51:43

Wikileaks has kicked the Hornet's Nest and the Swarm is headed towards us so again how does this relate to defy it's just the act that you know Wikileaks something that governments all over the world were after uh cannot even stop

00:51:55

Bitcoin peer-to-peer payments which is is defy and that is so powerful I think by itself um the Cannabis industry in America at least I can't speak for other countries

00:52:07

um has struggled with banks during legalization started back in Colorado many many years ago we saw lots of dispensaries taking in hundreds of thousand dollars of cash no banks would take them they would have nothing to do they would keep all the cash in their

00:52:20

dispensary I mean secure it by guards and I don't know what they ended up doing there were robberies raids all this kind of stuff and no banks would accept them nowadays I think they're becoming more like there are banks that are more weed friendly but still adult

00:52:33

industry as well adult industry since the beginning of time has always struggled pretty much in every way and especially with finances getting you know proper Banking and all that another issue is like overdraft fees and I don't

00:52:47

know about any other country but the us if you guys have this too but if you don't know what this is so this example on the left here you have a hundred dollars let's say you get your Starbucks morning let's say five dollars groceries seventy dollars gas 25 that's all your

00:53:00

money right so your gym membership you you forgot about it just charged you fifty dollars you're negative fifty dollars your bank is also going to charge you this fee of thirty five dollars so now you owe 85 dollars

00:53:12

and the reality is I mean you should just owe the 50 so you've got charged because you were poor you didn't have enough money and these they've raked in over seven billion dollars on overdraft and um

00:53:25

not I mean not enough money in your bank just from fees seven billion dollars taken from people who didn't have money like really like this insane um so

00:53:37

again go through my messy notes Here um I think it's a I just want to take a moment to acknowledge the kind of the Dual nature of defy that we see play out as well um so this headline is a little crazy but it says how the D5 space has become

00:53:52

a massive breeding ground for crypto Ponzi schemes and as someone is in defy I can't even stand up here and say oh D5 is perfect oh there's you know there's no greed there's no con no it's it's pretty bad right now

00:54:04

um socially I think like what you might see on the surface level and um yeah so while the actual content of this article it's like a bit melodramatic if you're actually gonna read it

00:54:16

um I think the the title stands true for what a lot of people who aren't in defy kind of think when they see D5 or or you know hear about it passing because it's always the worst stuff always the the nastiest stuff they see

00:54:29

and um you know I just want to remind you like this isn't new this isn't uh new to or only to defy this is crypto um you know it's it's it can be d52 but it's not the movement the movement of D5

00:54:41

is totally separate from all this stuff you see um in all the greed uh so um and let's see here so I went to back pedal a little bit

00:54:55

about myself and how I first got into crypto dough um I was just 15 I'm 26 now so over 10 years ago uh my exact need was for D5 so if you recognize this that's really

00:55:07

awesome you're probably pretty cool um if you don't recognize it that's totally okay as well it's a video game online uh RuneScape so it's an MMO a massive online multiplayer open economy

00:55:19

you can trade all those items gold whatever and the thing with this game is everything had real value so um you know if I want to sell my gold for PayPal for dollars there's a market for that always

00:55:31

um and to me as a kid that was so amazing and I wanted money I was like 15 14 16. I don't know I wanted cash on whatever I wanted to buy um and I could get PayPal I couldn't get a bank my allowance wasn't enough I

00:55:44

don't think I got allowance and um so I was like how do I sell this stuff I couldn't use anything PayPal you have to be 18. and the people who were 18 and use PayPal to say sell RuneScape items uh the buyers can call it PayPal

00:55:58

and say hey I didn't get my item or I didn't get whatever PayPal would send the money back to them and now this user is left with a negative balance hopefully not of minus three thousand dollars but uh it didn't just affect

00:56:11

these people it affected small businesses too PayPal has been notorious for you just call them up as long as you like did the transaction on a VPN or something you say hey this wasn't me I don't recognize this boom you get your money back uh PayPal is very bad about

00:56:23

that and not to mention they also just lock accounts so if you feel like a small business they've been known many many times to just block wallets lock balances and hopefully when you kycr go through everything you need they'll give it to you

00:56:37

um but yeah so because of all that I needed a a financial system where I could send and receive money without the risk of chargeback that PayPal had and uh yeah so at first it was Liberty Liberty

00:56:51

reserve do any of you know of Liberty reserve or have heard of Liberty reserve okay so um if you don't know I'm not an exporter at least not my notes Here I didn't write enough about it but it was like an online kind of payment system

00:57:03

kind of like PayPal if it was run by like Caribbean Mobsters who like didn't have a chargeback method and like there was no value it was just like Hey we're putting money on this thing and everyone you know is really shady government shutdown was like totally money

00:57:16

laundering um but that's all that existed before Bitcoin that's what we were using for for online payments when we when we didn't want that and even that it was like hard to onboard you couldn't just sign up for Liberty reserve and start

00:57:27

using it it was it was a complicated process um so then Bitcoin came Bitcoin came um shortly before Liberty reserve was shut down for good uh and we realized you know this was kind of the

00:57:38

alternative uh that we wanted so um earlier I mentioned Venezuela and their hyperinflation and I'm going to tie it back to my RuneScape game because what's interesting is reported by like several news articles and several

00:57:52

companies that are all that stuff if you look it up Venezuela for for many many years they've had lots of people who are actually using RuneScape to survive using it as an income

00:58:04

um and it's you know they they play the game they Farm the gold they sell it for crypto and that's what they use to make and the thing is it's like this makes more money than a lot of regular jobs uh that would be made in Venezuela and this

00:58:18

isn't at like a small scale this is like Mass scale on thousands or tens of thousands of people as a RuneScape player I've witnessed this personally you don't log in in a day without like um you know interacting with with that

00:58:31

and and it's a part of the game and like it's it's not a problem but the the problem too is like the game developers this is against the rules like they're not supposed to be doing this so the Venezuelan um gold Farmers they can get banned and

00:58:43

then if like it's just a whole mess and they're just trying to survive they're just you know um they're in a system that's failing them and they're trying to use something that is not failing them in and in this case it's a video game but hopefully you know with D5 we can build something that

00:58:56

is a um you know a little more promising than a centralized uh 20 year old game we've seen similar experiences like being replicated with axi infinity in the Philippines not necessarily just D5 but again almost everything ties into D5

00:59:10

in some way when you think of the movement and uh so that was really cool to see with actually Infinity and uh you know defy just allows us to build these entire systems so we don't need to tackle these problems using like

00:59:23

video games and stuff and we can actually build a financial system um and uh yeah so uh I was at ECC um this was like a few weeks ago I don't

00:59:36

know if any of you else were there but um it was like 3 A.M I was sitting at some party in like the woods or something and some dude comes up to me and he starts talking to me and he's like it's insane I again this is a 3M conversation so I

00:59:48

don't know how accurate uh the words here are but uh he says something along the lines of like I'm so like it's so crazy how people don't care about default or like not everyone's building defy and I question them I'm like what

01:00:01

do you mean like why D5 isn't the only thing that's so important but to him it was so surprising because his problem at that moment in his country that was the most important thing to him so at that moment he thought why you know why are

01:00:13

people not focused on this and then you know and I understand that and then me as an American uh you know I'm like sitting in my comfortable life I'm like I don't worry about these things and and that's privilege and uh you know and I

01:00:26

think um it just goes to show that you're gonna see people building for all different reasons depending on their situation you know you might have someone in Brooklyn in their Penthouse building some Ponzi to just get even richer they don't care about any values

01:00:38

they don't care about um the spirit or anything of crypto and you might have people that actually want to to build um towards a better future so what does a D5 world look like

01:00:49

um are we just all going to become like Tech nerds overnight probably not it's a it's a slow long process um we have to slowly I think abstract kind of the existing feel of crypto um you know even things like

01:01:02

the the website UI ux terminology like words like private Keys like all this stuff to this day is so hard I I always use the the mom and dad or Grandpa and Grandpa Benchmark uh I just I love this

01:01:15

Benchmark because pretty much anything in crypto I ask myself can my mom use this can my dad use this yes or no and then the next stage would be okay can my grandma or Grandpa use this and almost always the answer is no even for my

01:01:28

parents and my parents are I mean they're smart they're not stupid they're they've got a good head on their shoulders but I don't even think they could really kind of grasp the concept of 12 to 24 words on a piece of paper that protect all of their wealth you

01:01:40

know they can't take a picture of it you can't show your friends it gets lost your screwed like there's so much just the very first step of crypto and this kind of goes all along the way so um yeah so I think right now D5 is ready

01:01:52

for greed because and we'll see it more just because it's so hard to get into it's hard to um I guess I understand it from just a basic level for the empowerment of the

01:02:04

person and so we do find those those Bad actors um I guess more I guess more visible or more vocal even though if they're not um more in numbers

01:02:15

um so yeah I guess it's just also important to remember that the the vocal minority is not um the uh you know what I'm trying to say here so uh

01:02:29

finishing up here um yeah it's a really slow process like to get from D5 where it is today to where my mom and dad can use it very slow like whatever you're thinking slower and even slower and you know account abstraction

01:02:42

account abstraction raise your hand okay it's become a little more popular uh lately last few months especially with some changes but um this has been something that's been talked for five years if not more Argent

01:02:56

has been around since Ico ERA this is you know account abstraction is not new um and I'm not saying that you thought that but my point is just account abstraction itself has been talked about in research for over five years and yet

01:03:08

we're still here and that's okay it's not like we need to be at the finish line right now but again just I guess with the journey and um uh the movement it's it's important to to not give Integrity not to to I don't

01:03:22

know get overwhelmed and realize things take slow and we are making lots of progress um and it's really great so um nobody can predict what happens next and neither can I I would say it depends you know

01:03:35

um for those in America I really don't think like we will see an uprooted like Financial system on D5 like totally changed in our lifetime I think that would be great if it worked out um me again this is personally speaking

01:03:48

I could see more of a hybrid system I think um you know something with like a Sprinkle of defy or some kind of thing like that but again I just think um In Our Lifetime maybe not but I hope that whatever if it is a hybrid system

01:04:01

we can slowly grow and grow that power and turn it into a full system but for non-like America or or these world powers um I think that it's definitely possible In Our Lifetime that we can see their

01:04:13

entire Financial system um being taken over by defy or used by defy and almost um you know help Pioneer and uh like influence I guess other countries

01:04:26

that are are not ready to do that um and of course world events May accelerate the adoption of D5 as well so things that happen in the world or anything crazy For Better or Worse um

01:04:38

but even if they don't we're still working our way towards a more free financial future and uh let's see it's kind of all I had today I I totally screwed the speech up and I just wanted

01:04:50

to kind of remind us all that there's a lot of greed out there really like you go on crypto Twitter you might be disappointed 50 50 chance half the stuff you see is like really come on if not maybe it's just me um but there's so much good out there

01:05:02

and like every day is being built um surround yourself by awesome people like all of you if you're all here today like you guys are obviously the people that are not here for just pumping coins and greed and money so that's really awesome and um

01:05:15

yeah I just want to say thanks for listening to me ramble up here and if you want to say hi to me at any point to catch me after and uh if you're working on something I would love to hear about it and see how I can support you if I can if not offer feedback and just hear

01:05:28

so all right thank you everyone thank you thank you so much D5 dude another great example of the many ways to solve Solutions in the world and uh and whether in a dow or not how how we can

01:05:51

discover create and Define these different approaches to the world's problems uh if you want to dig deeper into that perhaps stick around for a

01:06:03

little bit back by popular demand we have uh Dr Nick joined by Ori from the mechanism Institute they'll be talking about Waze web 3 can help provide the

01:06:15

building blocks for these solutions for a better world and or outside of D5 would you uh gentlemen like to take a seat fantastic test [Music]

01:07:02

excellent all right well uh we we've got so much excitement today why uh why provide any delay uh for for those that are new to the conversation uh or would you like to

01:07:21

introduce uh mechanism design sure yeah so mechanism like what I've been working on or the topic let's go topic first sure so I would so mechanism design

01:07:35

um there's a lot of different definitions but what I like to think of it as is the design of systems um to achieve equilibrium uh through

01:07:46

their own intrinsic mechanisms so it's basically taking different building blocks and composing them together with the desired end goal in mind that you want the system to coordinate itself towards and I think it's gone through a

01:08:00

lot of iterations and comes from like a different mishmash of fields one main one is Game Theory and then the actual like formal academic mechanism design is just reverse Game Theory because game theory is analyzing what different

01:08:12

agents will do given certain like incentive payoff matrices and then mechanism design is saying okay given that let's reverse that and try to achieve certain outcomes by designing with those payoff matrices in mind

01:08:25

now that's like a game theoretical perspective I think there's lots of other valid um kind of ancestors to what we would call mechanism design today another one being cybernetics

01:08:37

systems theory um and there's probably regenerative economics and several other kind of disciplines or perspectives it could use and uh you've you found it the mechanism Institute with the goal of studying this

01:08:51

or yeah exactly with the goal of further advancing defining and serving what's going on in the field so that we can actually have principles design principles building blocks tools like

01:09:03

what you're working on to do better mechanism design basically because it's been a wild west out there for the past decade and some things work some things don't we don't understand why the things that work actually work and so what

01:09:16

we've set out to do is run experiments and then work with different projects to make it more scientific fantastic and if you're here earlier I believe you uh caught Dr Nick admitting

01:09:28

he lost a good eight years uh going down rabbit holes on this topic um would would you say there's any way of describing that kind of history and um yeah I mean so

01:09:41

the way I see mechanism it was a wonderful introduction I think it's it's a really interesting multi-disciplinary topic the way I think about it is which it's a route into decentralization because what we can do

01:09:53

is we can build it build a mechanism that yields human coordination in a way that we we intend as a productive outcome so you can use these sort of game

01:10:05

theoretic ideas to construct a system that kind of funnels people uh into in a direction that you want them to go and you can think about this by largely in crypto because we've got tokens I

01:10:16

think that the we've got this potential to design incentive mechanisms uh where you can you know do this this idea called incentive engineering or incentive alignment is a big principle in mechanism design

01:10:29

where you can just put the right breadcrumbs the right sort of value breadcrumbs and lead people down directions and it's up to them if they do it or not you know and so you're thinking about like how do you normally

01:10:41

sort of get people to do stuff that's towards a productive outcome well in a centralized organization you would have managers and Authority chains and then you would make people do it right so you basically just force people to do it by

01:10:53

trading their time for money right um whereas in mechanism design you can you can think of creating these systems that are productive for a network or a dow for example and people are just

01:11:06

doing it to like follow um follow an incentive Direction so with the right tool with the right thinking you can create a structure um that just gets people to do what you

01:11:18

want and it's they're doing it because they want to for the right incentives um I will say that there's it has somewhat dark like directions as well

01:11:30

um if anyone follows me on Twitter you'll know how much I hate World coin um like in in with a passion um but what they've done there is do a simple mechanism design which is you get

01:11:41

airdrop 25 World coins to upload your biometric data to train Sam Altman's uh biometric surveillance algorithms um so that that's an example of of a mechanism in Action a very simple one

01:11:55

um and you know in theory that it's it's a powerful tool that we're playing with here um but it can go in both directions [Music] yeah to double click on the dark side of

01:12:07

mechanism design I see two kind of big uh areas to avoid one is um these kind of what D5 dude was saying before about the the scams in the ponzis

01:12:20

and oftentimes mechanisms that are so complex that not even the people building them realize their ponzis so we have to like understand what we're actually building when we put it out into the world and study and run experiments on it

01:12:32

um and so this you know Olympus that was probably my favorite example of just no like nobody publicly was like realizing or Tara Luna right these things that are just these massive super complex

01:12:45

mechanisms that look really cool while they're growing and then people all of a sudden start to like wake up and you know the Kool-Aid wears off the other um kind of dangerous path I see

01:12:57

mechanism design going is like a neoliberal direction if basically large corporations large platforms and nation states are using

01:13:09

incentive design which they already do with the tax code and other kind of mechanisms but um yeah if they if they get inspired and use all these mechanisms coercively because I think what's magical about

01:13:21

crypto economic mechanism design which you were hinting at is that it's all voluntary the incentives need to work for people to want to coordinate through these mechanisms and so that that starts to be a lot less interesting and a lot

01:13:33

more scary when it's like here's the app you must use for all of your transactions and social networking and you know like the social credit score system type mechanisms

01:13:46

love it you guys uh beat me to the the dark side question right there uh and we we circled back a little bit with uh describing the the reason why the

01:13:57

designs are being implemented uh World coin perhaps is not with the right uh right motivation as it's influencing people through the mechanism similarly the state might not have the right

01:14:11

motivation it aside from motivation or uh or perhaps over complexity are there ways that you see design going wrong or

01:14:25

being a bad thing for those that receive it I think it's like I love that you brought up Olympus down because that that was um a really interesting moment there was a

01:14:38

the both Olympus down on Terra lunar I was shouting at people to get out of that thing no one would listen to me and it it's interesting to double click on why right the mechanism you know into a

01:14:51

sense it actually worked a little bit Olympus Down you know it was you know it came bundled with this 3-3 meme right which basically like it wasn't that the mechanism wasn't complete

01:15:03

um so one of the issues that I think you can get is like if you oversell what the mechanism is right so actually what it was was a mechanism for capitalizing a dow

01:15:15

um basically you know you you exchanged your money uh so your real ethereum um for own tokens which you then combined with own and eth for LP tokens

01:15:27

and then State these LP tokens um and then you know they gained protocol and that just basically money went into the Dow um the problem was is that these LP tokens which they called protocol and liquidity or derivative asset those

01:15:41

things and if when everyone started selling the ohm back into it those LP tokens just turned into ohm right and you just you get this Doom Loop scenario and really what they had was this scenario where you had like people who

01:15:54

got in super early um you could watch them staked and there was like a hundred guys sitting there on boat money like they'd put in like three grand or two grand or something and now they're on 20 million 30 million dollars

01:16:06

and it actually held together on pure means for a long time there was no mechanism there that was that was actually keeping the game uh together and when they started to defect

01:16:18

um so when your game breaks down people start to defect on the game and it just started to collapse so I think the you've got to be honest and critical about the mechanisms that you're creating I think and same with

01:16:31

Terra Luna it was a simple bit mint and burn contract and was actually very centralized um but they sold it like it was a stable coin and it wasn't all right well let's uh let's step back

01:16:43

into the light where from from your experience and and what you see developing in the field what do you what do you see as Good Foundations for mechanism design for a project yeah I think Good Foundations can come

01:16:57

from looking for inspiration in the right places I like to look to the periphery of our global economic system rather than try to replicate what is dominant so not to go back to the dark side but I feel like

01:17:09

a lot of the mechanisms today are just naive implementations of Wall Street and corporate you know Main Street corporations in our governance and our fundraising and our Market design so

01:17:22

yeah I like to look for good mechanisms to you know basically Global South and then peripheral practice within the West to see What mechanisms are so powerful

01:17:36

that they're working without Smart contracts and without coercion of the state right if they can work in these social contexts then prob maybe if we if we code them into smart contracts we can um yeah we can make more powerful

01:17:48

versions that can they can scale and displace the dominant Western models and one example of this yesterday in one of the talks someone brought up rotating uh

01:18:00

lending circles as well as Mutual Credit which work on the ground in you know probably hundreds of thousands of communities today and throughout history at a small scale but then if you can look and peel back how that works and

01:18:14

then design from first principles something that works on chain then I think you have a powerful starting point yeah I think that's I I like that you picked up the the I I also really don't like this we're

01:18:27

just copying the Wall Street stuff on on the blockchain I actually one of the most powerful and exciting things about defy was that it was created by people who weren't you know from that space there was actually people coming in with

01:18:40

a kind of carte blanche attitude of financial systems and Building Things from the ground up and then you know after the first D5 Bubble Burst it all sort of started to drift back to let's just put build fine you know Wall Street

01:18:52

on the blockchain um in terms of your sort of questioning around like a guiding principle um in London we have this thing called ulez which is like in principle a good idea which is it's a mechanism design

01:19:04

and it's it's uh congestion charge the eye it started off called congestion charge and the idea is that you draw a circle in the center of London and if you drive through it it costs you 15 pounds I think it is now it's a tax

01:19:16

essentially if you drive into this thing so people drive around it really nice example of a mechanism design um but it's it's a it's a negative one it's punitive right um what I'm and there's a lot of where

01:19:30

we're going in sort of reputation space can get into these kind of home brewed social Credit Systems um and I see people thinking of like well if this user does that then we're going to rub them and they have this the the they use the

01:19:44

negative mechanism Design This punitive control mechanisms to say right you've got to behave like this otherwise you're getting you know you will quite often they'll say right you're rugging your identity and all your money

01:19:56

um and that's what's gonna so that's why I don't like I would prefer as to I think there's a whole way we can design these things which are purely um positive incentives if you you can just you'll literally just go up not

01:20:09

down in them um but yeah that's as a default anyway there's um so I would just be wary of those punitive mechanisms

01:20:20

is there uh perhaps a way of framing the the space of positive incentives um I think it's I actually because like I mentioned earlier but I

01:20:32

came from a learning theory background and there was a point in schools where we used to cane children for like misbehaving right um and the we've stopped doing it and we've learned

01:20:44

ways of controlling the classroom and supporting learning through positive affirmations and through and through designing mechanisms that um are good and and positive so on

01:20:58

um so yeah take inspiration from from that kind of world where you can you can um yeah don't use the cane basically um and and and but use the right Treats

01:21:10

but don't fall into the Skinner box thing where you just come in and hit in the feeder bar with people uh again World coin pick pick up your extra World coin every day to hit a button why it's

01:21:21

just to fluff their numbers um so yeah don't do that actually just to be controversial I sometimes prefer the cane on chain

01:21:33

non-violent canes because it can especially when it's done in a micro incentive way yeah like I think holographic consensus which was designed by dowstack was really interesting because it had a lot of these like micro

01:21:47

incentives baked into the voting process like if you voted with the majority then you might receive like a little extra bump in your reputation score and if you voted out of sync with the majority you

01:21:59

might get a little right like the reverse and so um yeah like things like this where they're not rugging or like dramatic like a cane but they're more just like uh tiny carrots

01:22:12

and sticks that can lead the system towards higher order equilibria that are more difficult together with just carrots yeah I can give an example of the of where that can kind of go wrong I've designed this mechanism on a

01:22:25

prediction Market we are at an identity and you made predictions and every time you got a prediction right you got more voting power to so the idea being that you're good at predicting

01:22:37

um so you should have a higher weight influence in the predictions because you're good at predicting but because it was kind of only up um it just really benefited the early players

01:22:48

um and then so consequently we just had the earliest people I call the OG effect where you've just got the earliest people to the game in fact yeah yeah it's you got there early so you're just opied in the game just overpowered in

01:23:00

the game because you got there early um so yeah using that to sort of dampen down that influence is a good idea so canes canes are great if used gently

01:23:12

um but uh but back to the Light Side uh I I like the this idea of uh speaking in a children's context right especially for opening up a topic this complex uh

01:23:26

is there is there a way of describing to someone maybe a novice business owner or let's say a child what the good goals are if you've got a good mechanism

01:23:42

designed what what are the neat things that you can accomplish yeah I think there's a range of like desired coordination outcomes a simple one for like a business owner would be to

01:23:57

sustainably grow profit revenue for workers it could be to to improve working conditions and have more time off so I think you can Design Systems

01:24:09

that have these kind of outcomes from a macroeconomic perspective it could be the kind of stuff the FED does like price stability so if you yeah if you're managing a currency through mechanism design you might want

01:24:23

um you know not to have hyperinflation like we saw before um yeah but I think that one kind of class that's particularly interesting is common pool resources cprs which Eleanor Ostrom looks at and so that's like a

01:24:36

classic case of these coordination failures around managing Fisheries or forests and the resources there so I think that's an area I'd like to see a lot more experiments is in these real world

01:24:48

watch on refi it's a chiliate yeah but uh yeah so cpr's that's that's a good one to oh yeah so specifically to not over

01:25:01

um use a scarce resource to keep the use of exploitation below like below the rate of replenishment and also to fund the provisioning of that common pool resource that would be specifically how you would Define the outcomes in that case

01:25:14

so Resource Management workplace Improvement and uh and what profit well let's let's skip the profit when I think that's it I'll

01:25:27

throw on in um automation um so you basically you can you can replace out a system so I think this is where a lot of the Dow space will go is in you you've got this system you're just doing over and over and over again

01:25:40

and um it's got amount of leg work or process to it a mechanism could you could replace all that with a mechanism so you just like you can do things

01:25:52

without having to do things if you know what I mean you're building an automated system I mean I I know what you mean but let's pretend like they don't know what you mean so uh yeah so what's this mechanism they replace with

01:26:04

um yeah let's let for example Bitcoin is a mechanism right that secures a network um and people are chasing money they're playing a lottery essentially they're

01:26:16

just playing a lottery with computation power buying lottery tickets billions a second um and they're they're playing the lottery and winning money but what they're doing is securing a network so you can replace that abstraction with

01:26:29

what are the replace securing a network with any other kind of mining type operation these miners are just doing something they're playing this game it's not necessarily even they don't even necessarily even care about the outcome

01:26:42

but the outcome happens so it's a way of getting people to do stuff for you um and even if they don't even care about the end goal because they're doing it for the for the incentives

01:26:53

controller distance Michael [Music] fantastic so if we're if we're gonna play the game what's uh what's the the best uh Theory

01:27:05

to play it on well you're undoing the game theory right so there's something like like I play the game or don't it's up to you it's the phrase that I've got so basically I

01:27:21

think we're going to move into a world where these mechanisms are mocks more once we crack this stuff there's not many people care about it yet um but I think what we'll see is a few of these mechanisms that bite and end up

01:27:34

generating a huge amount of money um like can anyone remember looks rare it was uh nft short-lived nft Marketplace but what it did was basically create this mechanism where

01:27:47

people farmed you know like liked for tokens and created liquidity on an nft Marketplace a bit blur is essentially the same thing um but look looks rare lasted for three

01:27:59

months and the founders cashed out 300 million dollars um and yeah that was a bull market thing that happened but what it demonstrated was a mechanism in three months generated a huge amount of profit for

01:28:13

these things um and what I think is likely to happen is we're going to see these mechanisms drop and all the d-gens will coordinate around them and it will generate huge amounts of money and I think we skip two

01:28:26

or three more of those um and then everyone's going to start going crazy for it fantastic so if uh if we were going to

01:28:37

leave this with a a vision of of how this could be researched or explored further what what should we encourage ourselves in each other to to try to

01:28:52

synthesize into these practices yeah I would encourage everyone to do bold yet small experiments so push it far push the envelope where you want it to go

01:29:05

but don't test in prod right don't risk people's real money that don't have proper uh cautionary notice um yeah I completely agree with that I think

01:29:18

real experimentation um we need iterative experiments the there's been moments in crypto which I thought were like absolutely magical I thought like the defy summer period was was a wonderful moment of like open

01:29:30

source Innovation um but then it always end at what what I call the peak of Max scam where people take this thing and then they just dial it up to the Max and you know it starts out as nfts as art then it's profile

01:29:43

pictures and then it's you know J like Fiverr generated jpegs until it's just blown out and and gets totally extracted um so yeah same thing like valcaps like make it so people can't their entire

01:29:57

life savings into it um make sure the mecca tvl is a meme um don't change to the highest tvl possible uh it's just risk um so start literally put like caps on

01:30:10

the on the size of the game and I think that's a really good guided principle fantastic and if people want to check their mechanisms or or review them or

01:30:22

refine them as is there a good place for people to go yeah mechanism.institute we have a library of mechanism design Primitives so we have about like 130 different Primitives documented and

01:30:34

we're just working on more and more case studies and adding more so yeah just using that reaching out um yeah second that it's an incredible resource I think it's really wonderful thing that you've created there and and

01:30:46

yeah I love a mechanism I'm a total mechanism nerd so if anyone wants to share any with me uh just yeah grab me hit me up I'm happy to anytime fantastic thank you so much gentlemen right on time

01:30:59

[Applause] all right well um good design is a good management of resources resources being these

01:31:20

beautiful things we have the luxury of making use of whether coming from the planet or from each other uh thanks uh thanks to Ori and the mechanism Institute for offering up the resources

01:31:33

for anybody interested in exploring the the types and implementations of mechanism design if anybody is curious or interested about how the ways in which we live our lives and in

01:31:46

communities and in practices affect these impacts of what we're able to create and and the the strength of our bonds perhaps you'd be interested in this upcoming

01:31:59

explanation our dear metadreamer here is going to walk us through the intersection of science religion and coordination as we're all aspire to do more things and for higher purposes and

01:32:12

groups and communities this may be one of the better insights for us to carry away so I met a dreamer please guide us into it thank you Tom um I just want to start by giving a huge

01:32:31

shout out to Pete and Anita and all the volunteers setting this up this has probably been like the best conference I've been to ever sorry not a conference Festival it's a festival

01:32:47

um yeah exactly let me see if I can get my notes up on here actually there you go um yeah so today I'm gonna talk to you guys about the intersection of science

01:33:16

religion coordination or how we can scientifically leverage religion to solve coordination failure um so you know in the last like few years I've been studying a lot of history you know a lot of different

01:33:29

world religions and kind of looking at patterns um you know because that was a fascinating case study on large-scale coordination among humans um and trying to figure out what was there really that allowed it to scale to such a degree

01:33:42

um and you know I think in recent times uh religion gets a bad rap but I think you can't throw the baby out with the bathwater and I'm here to kind of like highlight a few behaviors and patterns and things uh that intersect with like

01:33:55

science religion and coordination and how we can kind of combine those three things to uh get to where we need to be um so

01:34:06

I think coordination fundamentally is war against entropy uh entropy being like chaos in the universe you know all of kind of human progress and technology and you know everything has been how can

01:34:18

we ensure some level of stability you know food clothing shelter uh protection against you know negative outcomes um and all these things are the reason why we even want to coordinate with each

01:34:30

other uh it's essentially the combat entropy and I think science and religion they kind of fit this in two separate ways like science kind of fighting material entropy or you

01:34:42

know technology things that we can perceive and sense with our you know uh worldly senses and then religion fighting spiritual entropy uh which is I think like the the deeper connections

01:34:54

humans have uh within them to uh overcome like interpersonal stuff so um with the second law of Thermodynamics

01:35:07

the universe is supposed to just like tend towards chaos especially if it started off as a big bang and you know you have like extremely high entry gases everywhere you know uh how is it that we went from that to like all these like

01:35:19

sophisticated ways in which I'm like vibrating my vocal cords to move air particles to eardrums then be processed by your brain and reflect our own on our own existence or you know mycelial networks and how they keep like nature

01:35:31

in Perfect Balance like how does all that order come from chaos and how does that um you know why is it that we have that and I think that's essentially the idea of Consciousness Consciousness is uh I like

01:35:45

to Define it as like the force that can counteract entropy so you know uh entropy normally it's like the the natural order of things and then Consciousness like humans and animals and all these things like uh it exerts a

01:35:57

force on that entropy to kind of shape it and mold it to you know uh how we want it to be and um for that reason uh there is a this idea of God essentially

01:36:11

becomes this idea of root coordination you know uh the word god kind of gets a you know people have a lot of like preconceived notions about what it is but um what I've kind of found like through

01:36:23

different world religions and uh a lot of like uh philosophers and theologians is essentially like there's a necessary existence of this like root coordination through uh through which like the light

01:36:35

of coordination is shining you know the fact that there is shape and dimension to the universe uh kind of necessitates there being this root coordination because we kind of appear uh into the universe where the universe is somewhat

01:36:48

of a game engine and you know as we grow up as children we're playing with the universe uh to try to understand how the game engine works and in our minds we build our own model of the game engine but in our minds is not actually the

01:37:01

full game engine itself it's something external to us something we can ever possibly perceive in its full entirety because uh of our limited senses so um when you can understand that you

01:37:14

understand like it's it's more of like an ontological thing that God is defined as the the absolute infinite if the universe is finite and bound by time and space

01:37:27

God is essentially the other side of that same coin um if that makes sense I have weird analogies so bear with me um all right so let's see

01:37:38

uh science is basically like a method for determining if the future will behave like you did in the past you know based on our senses so it's not like

01:37:50

definitive it's just like steps towards Clarity um and you know religion a lot of people see it as like a means of control and telling other people what to do and things like that it has been uh like

01:38:02

religion has been subverted for that for political gain throughout history and people get those too conflated but fundamentally I think religion is a way of controlling your own programming we're in a world especially now constantly we're you know with social

01:38:15

media algorithms and outside influence like we're constant our behavior is constantly being programmed and we're not actually in control of it and you know those things shape our basic behaviors and habits that you know shape who we are I really think like the root

01:38:28

of all coordination problems is just solving coordination from like within an individual uh and once you do that everything kind of Falls in place it's like the analogy of water flowing down a mountain uh if you try to like sit there

01:38:42

and theorize about or like come up with a design with like what's the best way to get the water to flow down the mountain we're just going to get in the way the best way is just to let it flow and it naturally Finds Its you know most efficient path down so um I think the

01:38:54

coordinate like large-scale coordination is the same thing we don't need like uh like we need like spiritual coordination protocols more than we need like technical ones um and so religion I see it as like being in control of your own programming

01:39:06

and you know the difference between spirituality and religion being uh it's like I think spirituality without religion some sort of practice is like you know an athlete without like a training or Diet regimen you know they

01:39:18

go hand in hand it's like the the tool in which you use to sharpen the acts of spirituality um so yeah there's a nice quote here uh uh moving on

01:39:32

um yeah we covered that okay so uh yeah like spiritual coordination um again I think uh we this is idea of like Malik and like Malik is

01:39:45

coordination failure and we're all trying to slay Malik I think Malik is essentially inside all of us and if we all slay it within us that's how we slay Malik but Malik doesn't want us to know that it wants us to try to fight each other to try to like see it as an

01:39:57

external thing um and then that keeps us distracted and it turns the whole thing into like a red versus blue left first right this political ideology versus that political ideology and those are all kind of distractions to like what's the real

01:40:10

root cause of it which is like internal coordination um so I think uh there's an interesting thing with this as like a group coordination protocol um you know beyond the individual the

01:40:24

next step is a group and to get a group to coordinate uh more like mycelium for example where it can be like this is a really large Network or ants you know uh it's a very large group that coordinates like really effectively and the way that

01:40:37

they do that is actually just by following a simple internal protocol each ant individually just you know follow these pheromones and from that the complexity of that behavior emerges naturally um so I think what we can learn from

01:40:50

religions is like through different religious ceremonies and practices and rituals we can kind of create a synchronization rituals within our communities ways in which we can

01:41:03

um you know come together and literally like synchronize our uh like coordination energies and uh essentially like you know religion being like oh you

01:41:16

don't want to everyone should do what they want to do and no one should compile anyone there is but the other side of it is like is a very practical beneficial element like improving coordination within the larger scale Community

01:41:27

um if people follow a protocol as individuals and then uh people know what to expect in the group and then they can work on things much higher level than worrying about the like smaller interpersonal stuff that gets in the way

01:41:40

it improves like compatibility and you know it provides a mechanism or a framework for scaling Beyond dunbar's number um you know with dunbar's number I think is only a limit uh when you're missing like spiritual synchronicity among a

01:41:54

group of people um and yeah it's essentially I see it as like uh surrender um you know and even my whole like journey in web3 and everything I'm doing

01:42:05

now like it's I never really planned it out I just kind of like went with the flow and like uh like was useful to someone where I could be useful and you know just like surrender to the Natural flow of things and that has got me to

01:42:19

like a place with people doing crazy things that I never would have imagined or you know I would I would not have gone there myself if I were to try to like plan that out or scheme it so you know when you can like surrender to the

01:42:31

force of like natural coordination which is you know the the you let the light of God AKA root coordination shine through you then that lets you you know that will put you in places where you know you'll never imagine so um but it it

01:42:45

it's it's scary and difficult because you have to let go and learn to surrender and it's a scary thing to do but if you're able to do that that I think is you know once if we all do that then um we slay them all

01:42:57

so uh yeah that's it [Applause]

01:43:14

that's the first time I practice the presentation so I don't know how long it was you actually left us a little time for questions I think you've uh led us into a beautiful deep well of faith and

01:43:27

belief and wondering if anybody's got any questions uh we've got actually several fantastic um you on the left uh so uh supplemental suggested reading

01:43:46

for this talk is uh Whitehead fantastic any any other questions or suggestions yes it's not a bad thing like entropy is the reason we all exist it gives us purpose if there's no entropy there's no purpose

01:44:06

to do anything yeah yeah so I think um I agree and you know because Mollica was inside of us I I would actually change what I said it's not our job to like slay them all inside of us it's always going to be inside of us it's to like uh be in control of it

01:44:33

or you know so entropy is not a bad thing it's a necessity but when um when you can be in control of it and not let it overtake you uh you know you let your the entropy being like your lower self and you can like overcome the lower

01:44:46

stops to become your higher self um like the the struggle against the lower self to do that is kind of what defines human existence and our like war against entropy uh he he's being nice I'll disagree with

01:44:58

you actually uh I think I I don't know about you guys I feel like both in in doing things in life and with myself in general there's this entropic energy that I think it takes skill and patience

01:45:12

and and effort to hold in and to rein in and this is a an important part of coordination is making sure that things don't spin off and spiral out and uh and it sits through these practices whether religious or not that we can kind of

01:45:26

find these these shared spaces and this the safety of of ritual yes yeah so I think it's like you know uh I think like you know without entropy or

01:46:07

anything it's like just Baseline um and good or bad I think is it is basically in Perfect Balance you know like uh just like you can't create or destroy energy you know like uh Define like taking that Baseline and adding contrast and shape

01:46:20

to it you know adds contrast and shape in both the good and the bad you know the uh the Baseline can be set anywhere but the fact that there is dimension the fact that there is shape the fact that there is like entropy and you know uh Consciousness

01:46:33

um that's the kind of thing that uh you know the the whole or some of that is defined as to me that's like the definition of God is the the sum of um that definition and Light

01:46:46

that we have uh entropy is existence I I think I think destroying empathy entropy is as a false ideal like just saying like anything never changing change is

01:47:02

inherent but but being mindful of that and conducting in ourselves in a way that tries to guide it in a helpful Direction I think is probably a great intersection to offer ourselves

01:47:15

speaking of intersection we're about to intersect with our next talk um thank you one more round of applause for meta Dreamer [Applause]

01:47:27

[Music] beautiful anybody had any good dreams lately no no volunteers no no dream talk oh the everything app that's that's a lovely dream I think uh it's it's one

01:47:51

that uh maybe getting closer than we'd like to believe all right anybody in here come from the workshop stage we got some great dreams happening over there if uh if you check your schedules handy

01:48:27

you'll see that we're coming up on a break but before that we've got some fantastic talks here and in

01:48:39

the workshop area we're wrapping up some North Star creation some building and contributing and healthy communities beautiful that shows some good alignment with what

01:49:00

we've been talking about over here happy for this healthy community and excited to take us into this next talk we'll be with you in just a moment all right looks like we're about ready

01:50:07

so uh if you are interested in how the future is coming then uh perhaps you would like to learn a little bit about meta systemic coaching this is a important way to perhaps organize your

01:50:22

team your effort into a better more cohesive and more effective unit so if you'd like to uh carry us into it I think everyone's excited

01:50:35

and ready wonderful is the mic on yeah okay it's on all right so hello everyone my name is Laurie from Finland uh

01:50:53

not not that directly related to the crypto scene or anything like that was funny before I came here my friends asked where are you going it was Croatia wife what for for meta Fest then they

01:51:07

were like I don't know what the [ __ ] that is about but it sounds you should be here so that's that's how I am uh and yeah so here to talk about meta systemic coaching so this kind of overlaps a

01:51:20

little bit with the meta modern philosophy that was introduced yesterday but at the same time with AI and at the same time with coordination so here we go and yeah my background is uh being an

01:51:34

entrepreneur since 2016 uh currently uh trying to create an AI that would basically uh work in a scalable way and provide uh systemic coaching for

01:51:46

organizations worldwide my background is also in systemic coaching uh and I do study philosophy future science and adult education in Helsinki University

01:51:58

and why do I want to talk about this topic so there's a couple of reasons that have been already talked about that there is this need for exponential human development because of all the change

01:52:10

that is ongoing and I do think that organizations uh can provide the leverage for that and that the current Tech emerging Technologies and the urgency and also the will are converging

01:52:23

towards some kind of a paradigm shift however that is a CV level material why I really want to do this is that I do think that mankind is inherently [ __ ] up uh life is [ __ ] up but we still

01:52:36

deserve to have fun and functional systems and and I think probably you do too you wouldn't be here otherwise so uh explaining a little bit about

01:52:48

these terms on what I mean with meta systemic coaching so systemic might be already a category that is already something you are familiar with and meta systemic is

01:53:02

just an extension of that it's about systems of systems and coaching by that means a way of interacting with another person usually through open-ended questions uh

01:53:15

that enables them to increase their capability for Action to become something more than they previously were and in this context uh we extend that to

01:53:28

interconnectedness to holistic holism to feedback loops to emergence patterns and Dynamics leverage points adaptive learning and taking different perspectives

01:53:41

uh and I'm coming back to the meta problem that already has been discussed quite a lot about uh I do think that it's there is some kind of a misalignment on a meta-systemic level of

01:53:54

exponential complexity uh and for already existing organizations this means that well it's very difficult to adapt because things are just moving so fast and you don't clearly understand

01:54:06

what is happening what is needed and what is relevant for the company and also the market and because of all the change that is ongoing people get increasingly reactive and change reluctant because there is lots of

01:54:20

pressure and lots of uncertainty which makes people anxious understandably so which leads to decrease in well-being and performance of people who actually want to do things which causes

01:54:31

stagnation and even regression and ultimately this means for organizations that the capabilities for calibration collaboration and communication around Share value creation uh gets

01:54:45

smaller and smaller so in short even though there is so much talk about leadership I don't it's a method but we don't need better leadership to thrive in the 2010 2020s

01:54:57

and into the future no there's something deeper we need to improve the Adaptive capabilities of organizations within complex novel situations and it's difficult to achieve it's like

01:55:11

very impressive stuff that you you guys are doing with with blockchain with those and on and all of that but I do think that there is this enemy called Common Sense uh our history uh I think

01:55:25

that if uh if we are already in agreement that we don't know what the [ __ ] is going on then this common sense I think is nonsensical and we need to start looking

01:55:36

for Alternatives and there can be many but for me uh what has been the paradigm shift is the French philosopher Jill de los who they say

01:55:50

uh it is difficult to try to explain the lures in five minutes uh please don't [ __ ] kill me uh but I I will at least make make an attempt to do so so basically what Dolores thinks is that

01:56:03

reality is becoming that there that reality is difference that our thinking reduces uh being into dogmatic images of thought into different habits into

01:56:16

different uh ways of thinking and acting which can be limiting to us uh and therefore uh we would need to create a

01:56:29

completely different kind of relationship to change to fundamentally transcend this outdated Common Sense these ways of thinking that uh are hindering our progress

01:56:41

um and here's I think a beautiful quote from from Duluth on how to how to achieve that he was a construction constructivist he thought that

01:56:51

we need to invent new Concepts we we need to confront the chaos see the possibilities see how things could be and then give them names because these names have a power and eventually they

01:57:05

become like a chair like a common object that people just agree that yes this is reality and and that is how we should relate to change that we have power over it we have power over transmuting chaos

01:57:19

according to our desires so some of these Concepts that he introduced I I think can be very useful uh when implemented in an organizational

01:57:33

context like this being as becoming and also rhizomatic thinking uh which means that instead of thinking that here are the boundaries of Economics here the boundaries of psychotherapy here are the

01:57:46

boundaries of philosophy let's actually just switch the boundaries and see completely new types of connections for thinking and for organizations this can mean different self-managing practices

01:57:58

questioning our ways of coordination and collaboration and communication uh I've given quite a list of different examples of of what what can be done and also

01:58:11

second thought which I think is very important is this thought about desire as production because there is this a lot of talk about needs but then the

01:58:23

question comes that okay where do these needs come from are they predefined are they something that uh we we can expect everyone to have the same needs or uh do

01:58:35

we actually uh desire always something extra is is there a need to think in terms of a lack or can we actually think about desire on in a productive Manner

01:58:47

and I think this change in the mindset uh how would I say completely changes our relation especially to our development as as human beings because when we don't

01:59:01

approach approach ourselves on what we are lacking but we can approach our lives in instead from the perspective on what can we create what can we give and

01:59:14

uh from here on I think this is a preaching to the converted as you are a taoists but uh one one another concept which I think is important is this plane of imminence which in a sense means that

01:59:27

uh we should approach uh reality on a in a more horizontal heterogeneous manner in instead of thinking that there are these transcendental beings like CEOs or

01:59:40

Banks or whatsoever they are just different ways of organizing our desires and can be questioned uh with with different kinds of practices and then finally

01:59:53

I I think dollars at least for me has been this uh prophet of radical Liberty with his idea that we actually can escape from different

02:00:06

types of seeming conflict situations uh with what he calls lines of flight with actually figuring out new ways to solve problems by re-configuring our

02:00:19

relationship and our perception of those problems and so fundamentally uh all of this sounds nice

02:00:29

interesting very very inspiring but fundamentally it comes back to the problem of power uh and especially to how we understand power because what I

02:00:41

was talking about is power uh as what we can do how can we affect the world the outside and also how the outside can affect us what can become true that

02:00:55

interaction but that is not a usual conception of power usually power is based on the idea that it is some some sort of a default that we have to fight uh about with each other

02:01:10

um so I made this dichotomy that I will get a bit deeper uh quite quite soon uh but starting from the first first idea I think that the idea of power that I was

02:01:22

trying to present is something I call Active liberatory it's the idea that power is everywhere power lives in our interactions but also power is productive we can create new things we

02:01:35

can create new knowledge we can even create new identities and realities and which is based on the idea that desire is positive the world is not something fixed the world is something we constantly collaborate and co-create

02:01:49

it's Dynamic and emerges from complex interactions which then again uh comes to another idea that okay so what are we really fighting against here

02:02:02

with this meta systemic coaching with with Daoism with regeneration with meta modernism I think it comes to focus conception of fascism and fascism as something internalized something that

02:02:17

approaches the world uh from this perspective of fixity from this perspective of boundaries from this perspective of lack and that is something that we need to

02:02:30

overcome so which and this type of power I call reactive supremacist power which originates from belief in scarcity which

02:02:42

is based on lack for example I am here talking to you because I want attention and I don't and stuff like that which can be also true but uh and also that in reactive supremacist power they believe

02:02:54

that power love recognition are something finite that we must fight against uh with each other which means that we are caught in zeros on some games and

02:03:06

we are in fixed identities powers and capabilities which I try to think that what could be the Mantra of this type of thinking and again it comes to this toxic common sense of be yourself don't

02:03:20

[ __ ] be yourself you don't know who you are until you try it's that's that's [ __ ] advice let's forget it we become ourselves by becoming other by trying out what we desire who we want to

02:03:33

become and and that is active liberatory power which believes that power is productive and we can become through mutual interactions uh which are

02:03:46

enriched with empowerment and collaborative enhancement so coming from this build up how I Define coaching is it's a form of Technology of

02:03:59

liberatory power it's a way of being with others that enhances their capabilities of action which means that meta systemic coaching is an exponential technology of

02:04:12

liberatory power just like daos for example so coming to these ideas of Technologies of Liberation uh here's a uh some might

02:04:24

recognize it's from Kenny Wilbur this meta theory of all quadrant model uh I've been thinking that in a sense there are these Technologies of self uh things

02:04:36

how we can internally work through uh the ways of thinking ways of feeling ways of acting that make us act in a dominating manner that a pro make us

02:04:50

approach the world from from the perspective of lack and also there's Technologies of me how my body behaves in time space which I think can be worked through with behavioral

02:05:02

modification techniques and just generally uh my I think scientific method even though with with all of its uh caveats still works quite well and

02:05:14

can be integrated into your way of being in this world and then more importantly when we extend from the idea of the individual there are these Technologies of us how we are with each other how we

02:05:29

can liberate each other how we can increase our common capabilities of action and then there are the Technologies of it which is in a sense approaching us but and also not just us

02:05:42

as humans but institutions Technologies to as systems as interactions as networks with both qualitative and quantitative data so the point of all of this is to develop liberatory systemic

02:05:55

leadership capability throughout the organization that organically communicates coordinates and calibrates around shared value creation and then how I want to help help here so

02:06:11

uh basically what I've been doing besides uh thinking about philosophy I've been building an AI coach which I would want to work as a cognitive Challenger a personal trainer and an

02:06:24

empathetic listener for people who are working in organizations I have created this concept that I call artificial virtuous intelligence something that increases the virtue of people it

02:06:37

interacts with uh and it works quite simply by just integrating to slack and teams and we are also looking into into other communication platforms you just

02:06:49

interacted with on a weekly or daily basis uh and the idea behind it is by this analogy of Trojan horse that in

02:07:01

a sense you shift this AI into corporations that are going through some sort of a change or transformation program and have people interact with it and which makes the organization

02:07:13

transition from reactive supremacist power Dynamic to an active liberatory one because it helps individuals to understand how they are influenced by and how they also can influence how

02:07:26

things are run in the organization and explore and adopt different novel approaches that mutually benefit them and their organization as well and there are lots of methodologies that we are integrating into it but I think

02:07:39

uh just having internal family systems which basically approaches the sale of uh as a multiplicity as an ecosystem of different drives and desires and with

02:07:51

system coaching which includes also the external reality the reality of capitalism the reality of how different departments in an organization and so on and then also the narrative practices

02:08:03

how can we build up empowering narratives for helping ourselves and others um okay so that is the first part the second part is that all of this

02:08:16

interaction with individuals accumulates quite a lot of uh reflexive data and uh which with with the with the content of the users we collect and anonymize uh

02:08:30

and I've been collaborating with uh sohailing ayatula who is the head futurist of of UNESCO who has created this model called uh causal layer analysis which basically allows you to

02:08:43

look into narrative and see the different levels of it that what kind of values what kind of World Views even what kind of myths the narratives if narrative is implying so we'll be we've

02:08:58

been building up a method that we call the internal Futures method which basically means that the AI uh when it has these in-depth interactions with people

02:09:09

uh can create an Ecology of metaphors of how people relate to working in the organization how people relate to the changes going on in the organization which could transition us from this

02:09:23

fetishism of superficial metrics to a more profound understanding of different realities that people in an organizational ecosystem are sharing and therefore creative constructive feedback

02:09:35

loops where people can see uh I I would love to have a shared dashboard with people so they can see how what what is the what are the shared realities and how can we use that as a

02:09:50

leverage for more enhanced coordination so here's a simulation I built on how how it looks like I fed the system many different metaphors and it could see for

02:10:04

example that there are these different topics that emerge these different Nexus of themes where if if we zoom into them we can see on

02:10:18

basically the realities people are living in and the realities people are sharing which I think uh quite dramatically changes the nature of power

02:10:30

used in organizations when it it's not anymore from the uh up down but it's something more horizontal something more constructive and believe it or not uh

02:10:43

even though we are a very early stage we do have operations in the nordics Japan and us and people are actually liking it uh and I'm I'm very happy for that so to

02:10:54

spread the corporate virus of liberatory power uh so and my vision is basically that this would increase agency of people which and increasing agency of people

02:11:07

benefits everyone in every context in emergent unforeseeable ways and it increases the intelligence of not just us as individuals but us as organizations which we need to tackle

02:11:21

the wicked problems of the now and near future better than we call it currently can we need to accelerate the collective intelligence of mankind and that happens with increasing empowerment uh

02:11:34

increasing the decentralization of power which all together leads to further adaptation in an accelerating exponential complexity thank you

02:11:49

[Applause] wow I never thought I'd enjoy such a powerful talk uh liberating power sounds like a wonderful thing uh anybody have any questions they'd like to pose about

02:12:05

it yes go on Ah that's a good question uh we we used to call it Panda training which was even more stupid name but then we couldn't leave the brand anymore which was

02:12:22

already rooted in Panda but I'm a 90s kid and I have a nostalgic attachment to trons so I wanted the pandatron [Applause] all right fantastic well uh yeah

02:12:58

how do you synthesize all the Frameworks in a practical sense sure sure sure sure uh that's a that's a really good question uh to which I would

02:13:09

claim that uh I mean I have the French post-structuralist uh ontological Foundation that we were discussing before but the surface level of that is pragmatism I'm just testing different

02:13:22

things and seeing how they work and this cluster [ __ ] that we have made make sense and it kind of works so until it doesn't uh I'm going that our Direction yeah sounds like you're you're

02:13:38

drinking the Kool-Aid of the liberating power with that I mean yeah this this would be quite quite weird if I if I wouldn't so uh then this is uh how would I say almost like a crusade to me at this point I

02:13:52

think it's an appropriate one it seems that uh social media has primed us to feel like we have to pitch on identity rather than explore which ones we can and might and perhaps

02:14:03

web3 is a great invitation for people to take you up on this invitation yeah yeah awesome thanks so much I think we have a panel coming up which will explore even deeper ways of governing dowels so

02:14:18

in the many ways that we can and should Empower each other in autonomous organizations we will have some thoughts we'll have I uh well

02:14:32

we'll have unoriginal uh moments where people disagree in original agreements fourth microphone wow he's in charge of turning it on and now

02:15:54

he has charged to turn it on so I generally don't start until the audience is quiet foreign because it's a Dao

02:16:10

so if the audience isn't ready this is going to be an interactive session where the people sitting here are going to participate it is not going to be a panel it's going to be fun or confronting well we this is the thing

02:16:22

like how did this decision get made because I definitely did not agree to be on a panel or facilitate a panel on the topic of governance patterns but the decision was made like in this

02:16:35

kind of long way and so we're talking about governance patterns and these these kind of hidden patterns for us where decisions are made and we're kind of like oh now how did I get here or how did that proposal get on the

02:16:48

table and it didn't really like it didn't happen at one moment how this panel got composed it was like peace contacted me and then another

02:17:01

person wanted to talk on the same topic but then he didn't want to leave another person out and then somebody asked for a favor and he couldn't say no to them and it was like we think that we're making decisions at these moments but there's so much human factor underneath

02:17:14

and we're quite disembodied actually I love the background noise that's fantastic um it's incredibly I don't know if you guys are hearing it but it's like very distracting and doesn't work is there

02:17:28

somebody here who can handle this situation because it really doesn't work like can can somebody yeah it is it has been delegated okay cool all right good

02:17:41

and so I thought what are the things that we're not seeing about how we're making these decisions and um yeah and I and I found myself one day talking about something at one of these

02:17:54

uh groups and somebody came up to me and started asking me questions and then another person came up and asked me questions and all the people were male people and there was like something right behind me and very soon I found myself with like five guys like

02:18:08

surrounding me and we're having this discussion where they're you know like kind of inquiring about what I said and then I all of a sudden I said look how we're standing and everybody's like wow and how much that changed this

02:18:21

conversation so we'd like to do some little exercises with you guys to kind of get a sense of some of these hidden factors and so the first thing I want to ask

02:18:34

everybody to ask themselves is what are the moments in which you know it's probably bad to respond to a text like first thing in the morning before

02:18:45

I've had my coffee after I just did this with the kids in between when I'm with the kids like and what I want you to pay attention to is

02:18:57

what are the emotional and physical Sensations that are associated with the moments that you probably shouldn't be answering that text it'll be a particular place in your body

02:19:10

and we could call that a state of emotional arousal right now you're probably at like a zero from a you know like one to five how much emotional or emotional space you are but if I started

02:19:24

complaining about how this is an all-female panel and why don't the women get enough space all of a sudden your emotional arousal might change like oh my God this feminist or you right so start to notice how that feels in your

02:19:38

body when you're and in that emotional state that you should not be participating on the Dow Discord Channel and then I want you to emotion notice the emotional state that you're in when you're like really resourced for some

02:19:56

people it might be happy for some people it might be calm like when you're like you're at a high state of emotional arousal excited fun whatever but it's a positive state and how that feels in your body and sort

02:20:09

of check that in and then you know I could say something like everybody gets paid the same you're like oh new emotional state so we're going to do a little exercise

02:20:24

that's just going to do a little exercise now that you've started to check in with your bodies like how that feels and what I'd like to do is to have people think of a situation in a Discord Channel or a Dao or somewhere where

02:20:36

maybe you weren't face to face with people that involve two or three or four people and you're down that did not go the way that you wished it went either the decision was a shitty

02:20:49

decision or the way that it was discussed was unpleasant or you found yourself very frequently in that emotionally aroused state that you wish you weren't in or maybe you answered the text you were the one who started it at that wrong

02:21:02

time of day yeah and like like Grace said uh we're going to explore the feelings and the effects that go along with these challenging situations so what I'd like is for you to just take a minute or two

02:21:17

close your eyes remember something that a situation with between two and four people where you felt like a very strong emotion or felt that it

02:21:30

got in the way or felt that somebody else was projecting this really strong emotion and you were triggered by them just take a minute to remember that and what I'd like is for you to drop down

02:21:41

into your body and take a deep breath and feel where in your body that emotion is gathering what kinds of Sensations there are in your body as you

02:22:01

experience re-experience that situation and just give it a little bit of space notice it notice the thoughts that are coming up in response to that notice they use your mind being

02:22:23

triggered by that body sensation of these can you sense any repetitive thoughts either shouldn't be happening this always happens um why are they doing this again why is this happening again

02:22:36

this keeps coming up why can't people behave the way I want them to why can't they just do what I want and they see that this is the best course of action we've all had moments like that I think

02:22:57

laughs what's wrong with me what's wrong with them that's right I'm worthless why isn't anyone listening to me why isn't somebody speaking up what I'd like to do

02:23:17

in the next few minutes is if somebody has a session sorry if somebody has a scenario that they have in mind that they would feel comfortable exploring

02:23:29

then I'd like to break us into groups um where we can re-explore those emotions so could somebody raise their could everybody raise their hand who's thought of a very clear scenario with a few

02:23:42

people a sure small number of people who would be willing to explore that and this is a LARP we're going to do a role-playing game while where in person you're going to do the thing you did online so if you raise your hand you're

02:23:55

going to get to assign the roles you don't have to say which one was you you could just say one person said this and one person said that and the people in the group will LARP with you and play the role-playing game here yes we don't have to script this we just

02:24:07

gather into groups and everybody takes a role and you preferably if you can just explain it very briefly you don't have to give a long narrative about it you just explain very briefly and concisely

02:24:20

to the others what role they are playing for example um if I was in a situation where I went into a meeting and wanted a decision

02:24:32

about something and for whatever reason that decision wasn't made even though it completely impedes the progress of whatever is going on in the project at that time the decision wasn't made and I

02:24:45

I might feel a lot of frustration at that I might feel that somebody was getting in the way of that and then another person might feel well it's too fast to make this decision I don't think that we should make this decision right now and somebody else might feel I feel

02:24:58

caught in the middle of this so those are that's just a brief example of the kinds of roles that might be available in that situation so if you want to role play the scenario like just hold your hand up with the

02:25:10

number of people that you'll need to play with you and then gather around a person who's got their hand up with the number of fingers that they want to role play with and if nobody does role plays this will

02:25:22

be we'll have to think of something else to do during this time all right we got somebody who needs three other players we got at least one LARP going all right we got somebody who needs another player one more player up here

02:25:35

guys so what you'll go with him you're gonna go group with him he's going to do a LARP so he's going to have at least when three people go around him he's well he'll put a finger down every time he doesn't need another person and then you guys can LARP

02:25:49

anybody else have another situation that they want to role play none of you have ever had conflict it doesn't have to be it doesn't have to be in the Dow situation it could be in your everyday life as well you could take

02:26:02

something out man yeah he still doesn't have enough people to LARP with him too one more person uh maybe we're not I mean if people are not up for this maybe we have to change the format

02:26:16

I guess I would also like to share this does connect to governance at the end and the way you'll be able to feel and understand that connection the most is by participating just like in governance

02:26:29

oh so I would love to encourage everyone else to join a group if you don't have an idea we'll come out and help facilitate that as well so I think there is a cluster up front

02:26:41

um are you all comfortable oh wonderful he's looking for a couple of role players all right he's got you've got another role player and I think we have so we have three role players and then we have three non-roll players over here so

02:26:55

we'll either come up with something or all right you can also Join one of the other groups and like pretend to be a participant that they didn't name but who's also on the Discord Channel you could like make up your own role

02:27:09

okay cool we got groups cool so so take two minutes or two to five minutes to explain what you're doing and then play the role play and I'll stop you guys at some point

02:27:45

excuse me so much religious so let's do one show ourselves why not yeah foreign foreign

02:30:57

all right here yeah okay okay foreign so as you're talking Elevate and and exaggerate the emotional state you're in like exaggerate your character's

02:33:17

emotional state like what are you talking about you know this is a crypto company we pay in tokens you know exaggerate it it's already issued as you know we issued the tokens

02:33:45

um well that is I mean if you don't believe in this project what are you doing here privacy matters so

02:35:22

security matters then I mean if you want you can work half time and then you have like whatever it is used for a company or you can understand I hire you because you've been experiencing what have you been doing

02:35:46

this last isn't this like this is but later maybe six months but I'm not one of those domestic well you're investing your time obviously

02:36:03

what do you expect people in advance hope that you delivered if you deliver food that's only partial absolutely I can't do it it's not like I

02:36:17

can find another program I mean there's no those are not there's only two options that you have to use okay now up front and yeah okay guys all right do you do you feel like you

02:37:01

have uh successfully explored the Dynamics between your between your individuals and your group maybe maybe not we're not we're not asking you to solve the problem just Express the emotions

02:37:15

[Music] [Applause] okay maybe just stand up yeah yeah because let's kind of do a little bit of movement shake your whole body get rid of this Darkness

02:37:36

yeah okay I could do a little jumping as well just check it yeah and high five each other [Music] cool everybody Loosey Goosey

02:38:06

cool share with us okay so why don't we share some of the emotions that came up where where did we feel stuck who felt really

02:38:21

confrontational or who felt kind of like the energy was trapped or um you know in our in our group I felt really frustrated because I felt like I wasn't being heard we did a we did a role play as well

02:38:34

laughs that that is the whole problem with crypto it's crypto don't you know what kind of business this is so I felt really um frustrated because

02:38:47

because the scenario was that uh that our pay was being held invested it's called vested vested in escrow in a smart contract

02:39:01

until six months later and I was playing the part of somebody who needs to do things by the book and who needs a steady income and who needs to declare and everything so um that was that was my role and I felt really frustrated because I felt like I wasn't being heard

02:39:14

I felt like my needs weren't being met I felt uh this kind of feeling of frustration building in my solar plexus that I felt like I was like talking to a wall like there was no

02:39:26

nothing coming back except this line of well this is crypto what do you expect and in my role so if I I was doing this by Discord if I were doing it by Discord I wrote everything really clearly and

02:39:39

I'm starting to think this person is a little bit stupid or something and maybe I shouldn't have hired them like it's all written out really carefully like what does what don't they understand what's their problem so also like at first it just seemed like very

02:39:52

administrative like when this when was happening by text I could see it was very administrative when I was talking to the person I could see they were getting frustrated and upset but by text it just sounded like they were kind of

02:40:05

stupid that they didn't understand so how about you guys what came up for you and maybe what are some of the differences between doing it by text and doing it in groups Maybe

02:40:29

you can do without context and you can do it like my experience when I was doing it by text was like this and when I did it by some just the way I did it like when I did it by text it felt like very neutral like I just explained it when I'm doing it in person it felt like

02:40:42

this so that it wouldn't be you wouldn't necessarily need to mention names this was also through Discord um I am more than happy to share my beliefs about

02:40:58

ideologies and religions and I would like to share my general I'm an atheist but there are other people in my team who are very religious and very oriented

02:41:11

to um sharing their hard sharing their beliefs for the good um for me it's no problem that people have their own religions and their own purposes in life however in a

02:41:24

dow-oriented community or in a doubt religion should not be expressed to be the core focus of the movement so I've found issues

02:41:39

um it was so through text it felt like intensive irony considering the person would share his beliefs big time and it's ironic in a sense when others share

02:42:07

their beliefs uh whereas oh I see thank you I appreciate it was different here in Texas because there's a lot more visual

02:42:24

um but it's a lot more eye to eye and it's a lot more interruptions whereas through Discord it feels like you say your point and then they only respond to your point there's

02:42:37

no uh emotions there's no references that you can share it it's just all straight argumentative in person so I felt more connected with the people

02:42:50

that were kind of on my side I felt like no disrespect no disrespect I I felt that it was someone again no there's no disrespect the person

02:43:04

is much more stubborn and yeah in person they're much more stubborn whereas through Discord everyone can publicly see that they're saying this and everyone can

02:43:16

kind of disagree with that person so you have a lot more backing whereas if someone's just louder like this you know they make their point whereas group of people who collectively

02:43:28

disagree there's no way to text so that was her so she I don't know do you want to ask her yeah how would it be for you if you were getting a whole lot of backing from a

02:43:56

whole bunch of people like opposing you on Discord versus this kind of conversation how different might that be um it would be more attacking that three of us three of them would be against me

02:44:11

like just on the line it's not so it's not so no it they have more power in in real because it's like these six eyes has six

02:44:22

energies and the the sound of the the mimics and everything it's just the body language and the energy of people and if you are like one against three it's really different in Life or on the

02:44:37

computer I mean though awesome and again we're talking about government instructions things that are hidden inside of our doubts does anybody in this group want to talk about their experience and how it might have been oh you've got a vibe wow yeah go for it

02:44:52

I found I actually playing in this role of someone that was being kind of put off and and finishing or improving

02:45:08

or kind of doing due diligence in a project that it was more frustrating in person because in in a digital sense

02:45:21

when when the frustration is kind of a lack of action or a lack of follow-through then you have to have some imagination of empathy that maybe they're just bogged down by this or that

02:45:33

or this or that but when when directly to someone's face it's just like no let's not worry about it and and putting off the the conversation or dismissing it I think has less of a kind of

02:45:47

potential excuse it's just kind of a refusal to to follow through with a goal can I ask how are you feeling in your body when you were experiencing this

02:46:00

face to face I find that very interesting that it was Amplified face to face so when you were talking to this person how did it feel well you know it's it can only go around the circle so many times before you're like well you

02:46:13

you already have all the explanation you need what why are we discussing whether to do it why not why don't we just do it and so I guess in in the moments where there's not really something new to

02:46:26

share but you're saying but this is this is what we're here to do why don't we do it it it does feel a little bit kind of uh tense like uh internal tightness maybe yeah I

02:46:41

noticed that you're pointing here at your chest around around here lower chest area upper belly area yeah that's interesting because I felt that too and I was feeling frustrated it was here right here that it was and I felt it

02:46:54

when you were describing it fabulous yeah generally like there's certain centers that Harbor emotion like here or your heart or your belly and people talk about it we're really fortunate because Aaron's actually done research on this and she's going to tell

02:47:08

us about how the research has shown some of the things we found out on our bodies today so we were hoping that through this exploration you're able to connect with

02:47:20

the end of the end of yourself just as any doubt is this compilation of individual people or individual working groups as well that's complicated um and

02:47:33

I guess for a little bit of context I'm part of talent Dow we do research on Dao so some of the different things I'm sharing are just kind of high level aggregate findings we've come across

02:47:45

with some interspersing of things I've seen personally or experienced as well and hoping that that can tie this experience back so you can take it Forward working in your different groups

02:47:57

whether you're part of a Dao or just as we move into a more decentralized distributed Workforce and one of the biggest findings that we've come across is that

02:48:11

without kind of a central Force leading us forward tying us together it's really easy for conflict to rise and groups and teams to unravel

02:48:23

and some of these different emotions are kind of those underlying forces that can lead to that unraveling and as you might be leading different Dows you might take

02:48:36

this approach of oh I want to take a really Democratic way to solving issues with the environment there are a ton of people amazing people who care

02:48:48

about it but if I say all right all of us in here let's go out solve the issues with the environment today would you know how to take that next step forward

02:49:00

would we have a good sense of how to work collectively in doing that one person might have the idea of oh solar's answer we have to move that way another person might lean towards

02:49:12

agriculture but if we leave today and we're like all right gung-ho let's go let's go solve issues with the environment would that be a connected movement forward

02:49:24

and coming back to that question especially when we're in leadership roles and taking on that internal responsibility of setting some of that different Vision setting the vector

02:49:37

direction of where we're going as an organization is actually essential to keeping it alive to then inviting other people in to have

02:49:49

that discussion to become part of it seems kind of counterintuitive at first and a lot of that has to come back to how are we showing up in our own bodies

02:50:01

to show up effectively in whatever roles we're participating in are we showing up properly in that role are we communicating fully are we

02:50:14

compensating others appropriately and all of the other kind of conversations about governance about what does the tokenomics of this organization look like what does

02:50:27

communication flow what does even the design of the different smart contracts come back to some of these discussions and really what are we doing here

02:50:39

and getting crystal clear on that is where impact can be had and in many different conversations yesterday and meeting many of you I feel like we're all quite oriented

02:50:53

towards wanting to have that impact wanting to take one step forward to making it better um and there's a lot we can learn from the kind of systems and institutions

02:51:05

that be already while taking this next step forward and just not losing sight of structure is essential and sometimes we do have to speak up sometimes we do have to

02:51:19

stand for different things we believe in and that's okay if everyone else doesn't agree they can make another tribe they can create another Dao and like fulfill that mission

02:51:33

um and it really comes back to connecting at that more human level to then build out some more of those structures to really enhance whatever we're trying to work towards

02:51:45

we're hoping that this first introduction to just kind of bring you back into your body into maybe a moment that was able to resonate with you can then allow you to take that forward when

02:51:58

he might be deciding all of these different maybe more technical kind of points of your organization is that connecting yeah and so we really would have liked

02:52:14

to be able to have more time to do these kinds of exercises like if we had done the if we had more time the next exercise would have the same conversation but with a real strong commitment to get to know the other person to like really understand their

02:52:26

argument and you know really saying when you're triggered even saying oh I'm feeling really like this is making me feel uncomfortable and having like a very different type of conversation

02:52:37

um but to end it on a really up note we're going to wrap up and everybody should do high fives again we're gonna go down the aisle and you can high five us as we come by beautiful let's everybody uh high five

02:53:01

themselves uh real real quick as a thank you for this wonderful panel fantastic did y'all want to make it he's wonderful all right so we're gonna set the stage real quick uh prepare

02:53:23

ourselves to transition from our governance patterns exercises to a regulatory considerations for Dallin web 3 projects talk um so we're going to uh prep this

02:53:35

presentation real quickly and uh be with you in just a moment thank you for making it in we were very excited to be taking the conversation from how to

02:53:50

effectively accomplish things to uh how to not get in big trouble for accomplishing things uh it's maybe an important step in the space and uh

02:54:02

grateful that uh Jawa can come Jonah I'm sorry Jonah can come from uh bankless Dao to uh and

02:54:14

ombuds and FTW wow it's actually quite a quite a long pedigree of here including head of Business Development at my Dao so she's gonna walk us through how to help and understand the

02:54:27

regulatory impacts of Dao's the pros and cons of legal jurisdictions and the biggest risks so everybody get out your notepads this one sounds like one you should remember thank you so much

02:54:40

yeah thank you so much I appreciate it so would it be actually okay if I take a stool here [Music]

02:54:55

hey everyone how are you today um all right have you all been here for the whole five days already or people yeah okay nice I just flew in and just

02:55:10

drove straight here so I'm happy to be here yeah thank you so much so my name is Jonah Standish and I'm involved actually the the talk that was just before mine was is obviously very

02:55:24

relevant for all of us because we're probably all involved in Dows or web3 projects in some way shape or form and governance and the social layer are so important

02:55:37

but what I want to talk with you about today is yes so I come from bank listow I'm one of the ombuds there what that means is I'm one of the mediators so it's an elected role that if we run into

02:55:48

social problems or just think of Bad actors in The Dao or people gone Rogue and somebody needs to come to someone to bring forth a complaint they would come to the ombuds office within bankless Dao

02:56:02

so the three people that were just up here speaking about some of the challenges that we run into if anyone wants to talk about those things offline I'd be happy to share a lot of our our own Lessons Learned within bankless Dao

02:56:15

and I'm also part of FTW Dao which is a venture capital Dow which is a pretty cool project that's trying to turn the way that Venture Capital works on its

02:56:27

ear but my my day job is with my Dao and my Dao is a registered and exclusive registered agent for the government of the Marshall Islands and what that means is we've partnered with the government

02:56:40

of the Marshall Islands to help them write the best legislation in the world for web 3 and for web 3 is all-encompassing of of token launches

02:56:51

nfts Dow projects you name it and so we work very closely with the government of the Marshall Islands to help write very friendly very welcoming legislation for our entire community and up until very

02:57:06

recently you may know some legal jurisdictions like the Cayman Islands bvis Switzerland Seychelles Panama if any of these

02:57:17

ringing a bell raise your hand yeah so I'm not up here to say anything bad about any other jurisdiction in the world but what I will say is there are very few jurisdictions in the world that actually

02:57:31

have comprehensive legislations today it's still all very new as I'm sure most of you know and so one of the things that the three things I wanted to talk with you about today really were some of the regulatory

02:57:43

considerations when you are in a dow whether you're a member like a casual member that comes in and out or if you're a multi-cig or if you're a founder or if you have an elected role just some things that you should be made

02:57:56

aware of and then we can talk a little bit about some of the pros and cons of the different jurisdictions that are out there today that you may know of for example like Cayman BVI um

02:58:07

Seychelles Panama you name it et cetera Etc Marshall Islands that's another one and then the third thing is really just to make sure that we're all aware of what the biggest risks are for us as

02:58:22

members of dows or contributors of daos because I think up until this point um we are all getting smarter on this topic on a daily basis we've seen what's

02:58:33

happened with ukidao with dxdy we've seen you know what's playing out with FTX which is separate but it's it's kind of falls under the same umbrella and it has a lot to do with the perception of

02:58:46

crypto and blockchain and so really what I'd like to get into today is to just dig into how many so I I know that Dan for example we just met so how many of you are either Founders

02:59:01

in a dow or have like I would say big responsibilities within a dow okay so a good portion of you and up until this point do you know what your

02:59:14

project has for a legal rapper number one and number two do you even believe in something like that because some say that it flies in the face of the whole ethos of web3 to even have a legal rapper

02:59:26

[Music] okay ever interesting okay I mean so first of all I just want to say I'm not up here giving legal advice to anyone I'm just sharing Legal Information and by the way

02:59:55

I'm not a lawyer so maybe that will make you like me more or less I don't know but I'm not a lawyer I just work with lots of lawyers and um so that's a very interesting point and so

03:00:07

we're we hear opinions like this all the time like you know to have a legal rapper to not have a legal rapper and then there's something called Legal Arbitrage which has been going on since the beginning of

03:00:20

time since legal entities have existed where projects or companies would establish legal entities in all of the jurisdictions that offered some piece of

03:00:32

I'll just a legislative coverage for what they were doing activities they were doing and that's become very popular in our doing and that's become very popular in our space today and so you know some of this terminology

03:00:46

is very legal for lawyers but I feel like in our space like I said we're all getting smarter on these topics daily and we're reading about Lessons Learned

03:00:59

and big projects like maker Dow they announced at eth Prague a couple of months ago that they were going to move to like the series Dao LLC model and I don't know if you all are familiar

03:01:11

with that and the benefits of that but just at a very high level and I think makerdale is a great example and I think they're a great pillar in our space to be able to set the tone

03:01:23

but what we see happening a lot in this space is a lot of copycatting right so let's say I'm a small project with five of my friends you know friends that we've worked on various projects

03:01:36

together and we don't have any legal entity set up maybe we are applying for like a grant with a big D5 fund or something like that

03:01:48

and then we're fortunate enough to win that Grant and then we get it but we don't have a legal we don't have any legal rapper so if I decided amongst or the five of us decided okay I'll put the money in my

03:02:02

wallet so that we can then start to invest it and spend it what I just did was I just triggered a personal tax event for myself for whatever that amount of money

03:02:13

was 500k a million and there are lots of mistakes that have been made a lot of us have made these big mistakes over the last couple of years and we try to share this Alpha with everyone

03:02:27

so that we can prevent you from making those same mistakes that that a lot of us have made so yeah I mean that's the biggest thing that that you should be aware of and I think most of you are since you are

03:02:39

heavily involved in these projects are that in the eyes of the law if you don't have a legal entity of some sort you are considered a general

03:02:51

partnership and what that means is that any activity that happens within your project or Dao or whatever you're going to call it it means that you all we all could be held

03:03:05

independently liable for the actions of the others and while what we all are doing seemingly here is we all have goodness with our intentions we all want to do good things and make changes in

03:03:17

the world that we want to see but sometimes as the panel that was here before me sometimes when there's miscommunication or people disagree or so on and so forth you know we're human

03:03:30

and people have people get triggered they get emotional about things and sometimes there's major disagreements and then people ghost and there could be you know someone in a multi-cig that

03:03:43

disappears I don't know if that's happened to anyone but I've experienced it and you know it's it's just a real big waste actually because it those energies and those funds could

03:03:55

have gone to to some some project and something else that perhaps there was Harmony in right and so it's just a mindful it's a reminder that

03:04:07

you need to really have some Harmony and also to think about like an exit strategy before you even start out I know that might seem a little

03:04:19

pessimistic but it's actually the wise thing to do so when you get together as a group and you say what is it that we want to achieve here and you all agree on X Y and Z and

03:04:31

because it's the startup culture there's a lot of iterating and pivots that happen if you don't talk about those things in the beginning ultimately someone is going to disagree with a pivot or a turn that you take it's just

03:04:44

human nature right so those are some things I don't know if anybody in the audience has experience with that sort of laying out an exit strategy in the beginning does anybody has anybody gone through that exercise

03:04:57

it can be a little uncomfortable but yeah yeah well it yeah how many people have been rugged me too no meaning have you gone through

03:05:10

the Journey of setting out okay what is our goal I think we've all done that but what if it doesn't work out and what if you know what if we agree to disagree for example did you want to say something on that

03:05:42

okay then the other one was a legal entity right right charities yeah so anyways it was just like a big um it was a comedy of errors I guess

03:06:30

yeah but it's very common I mean what you explain here is very common and it's costly right I mean you probably or you were right

03:06:48

yeah yeah well a lot of projects will um I'll just give you some examples from my experience at my Dao I talk with anywhere from it can be anywhere from like 20 to 50 dollars on a weekly basis depends on the season depends on the

03:07:02

month and what we see a lot of today is that a lot of projects already have legal entities and they're sort of scratching their head saying you know I got this

03:07:13

like a year or two ago and I got it because I heard that this big D5 project was in this jurisdiction and that and so like I said there's a lot of copycatting going on which in some cases can work out great for you but if you're not

03:07:26

doing the same exact thing as that other project and you don't have the same goals and you don't have the same risks for example it could be a very costly mistake to just copy paste what somebody else did

03:07:39

and I'm not advocating that all of you invest all of your money on lawyers but it is a really good idea to find who that network of community is community the the communities are and I don't know

03:07:52

if you guys are familiar with for example legal now it's a Global Network of web 3 lawyers literally spread across the globe there's probably over 300 of them and I think you can tap into them on Telegram

03:08:05

they'll talk they'll talk to any of you and then there's the blockchain lawyers group which is a very well respected group of thought leaders in this space and again those are people that you can

03:08:17

reach out to and talk to and I can't quote what all of them offer but most of them will have like a 30 minute free consult call with you which you know could be a really a good use of your

03:08:30

time good use of 30 minutes um so yeah it's just to make sure that you understand the resources that are out there today and the biggest risks really for Founders and for members

03:08:43

yeah please okay yeah yeah that's a and some of them no I agree with you and I thank you for bringing that point up that that's an excellent point and did you want to add

03:09:36

something else real estate developers anytime you buy a property you're you're not in its own little right yeah I can give you the answer I don't want this to be a a total shill for the Marshall Islands but it is an air like I

03:10:31

know I'm not an expert at the Cayman but I formally worked in venture capital and I was going to say it's venture capitalist that made the Cayman Islands famous for for anybody that's wondering Venture capitalists made the Cayman Island

03:10:44

jurisdiction famous I don't know if you would disagree with that but for most of the big projects that exist out there today the biggest whales or like a16z I don't think that's a secret

03:10:56

for any one of us here if it is sorry to break that news to you but and often it's the Venture capitalists that give the tap on the shoulder to the lawyer to do the legal engineering where it's

03:11:10

tried and true where they've done it a hundred times before and where is that the Cayman Islands the Cayman Islands actually doesn't have one piece of legislation unless you correct me unless it came out yesterday

03:11:22

for web3 there's nothing yeah exactly exactly and so you just asked the point about the Marshall Islands I can share that just because that's where my experience is so we helped pass the Dow Act of 2022

03:11:44

last year and that's an all-encompassing piece of legislation you're all welcome to read that if you are into that sort of thing you can go to mydow.org on our website and you can actually see the the

03:11:56

the piece of legislation there we are now working on the third amendment to that so you can see all of the Amendments that are out there we're focused on working on a more comprehensive terminology around the

03:12:09

digital asset side of things but you'll see everything out there and then your question was how does the Marshall Islands treat that for example so I can just give you an example in the Marshall Islands there are no Boards of directors

03:12:22

in the Marshall Islands and you could say so who cares what I it doesn't matter yeah go ahead well here's why here in all the best ways you said it not me but in the eyes

03:12:41

of the law and maybe because you're a lawyer or a former lawyer in the eyes of the law one can argue that if you have a board of directors that you are centrally controlled because ultimately what is the purpose

03:12:53

of a board of directors right they oversee the CEO ultimately right exactly exactly and so in the Marshall Islands there are no Boards of directors and what the government and this piece of

03:13:11

legislation called the Dow Act of 2022 outlines is that there are no Boards of directors there's only what the government recognizes as beneficial members and beneficial members can be

03:13:23

defined as anyone that has 25 percent or more of governance rights someone could argue hey that sounds like a board um but it is a lot right so anyone that has 25

03:13:37

or more would need to be listed in the legal operating agreement for that legal entity and they would need to do kyc and for example like I can only share what we do I don't know what others do

03:13:48

but we use a third party kyc provider that's located in France that has the EU gdpr data protection laws we're not running kyc through the U.S people ask us these types of questions

03:14:02

um and so that's sort of the process in the Marshall Islands that happens I mean it's pretty straightforward and then you know those people would pass kyc would wrap it up we we do like a cust we give

03:14:16

you the operating agreement and you'd work on that with your lawyer either one we refer you to or one that you come with and we do that with you pretty quickly and then that gets submitted to the government they run some of their

03:14:29

own checks you know like I can't say specifically but they run some of their own like background check and that's that's it there's legislation in place to address all of it like what you're talking about

03:14:41

tokenization of real world assets and things like that you can do that there go yeah let's go so I mean we're we're still we're still new I mean in the in

03:14:54

the big scheme of things right my Dao is still new we're we're a year and a half you know inching on two years and we have over a hundred Dows that have registered with us in the Marshall

03:15:06

Islands and so maybe I don't know maybe that number sounds small to you maybe it sounds big but the important thing to know about these jurisdictions that you might set up shop in again I'll speak to what I know so the

03:15:20

Marshall Islands and I'm sure you'll know this too one out of every five ships in the world are registered in the Marshall Islands we could get it higher we absolutely could get it higher

03:15:32

and then 50 companies split between the NASDAQ and the New York Stock Exchange are also registered in the Marshall Islands so it has a long and Rich reputation and a clean reputation in the

03:15:44

eyes of the law and what the government there is being very careful and mindful is to they don't want to be recognized as this new web 3 jurisdiction that attracts Bad actors so you know they

03:15:56

have their own screening policies and things like that and um we partner exclusively with them to to help all of you and I even see some of our clients are in the audience and

03:16:08

I'm super stoked about that because uh we love to see that and that's where we get a lot of our feedback for iterating on the legislation too is based on what our clients are doing or what people

03:16:20

tell us they want and um yeah so I don't know if you had another question or the Marshall Islands running their own uh it is not but you know I I'm not

03:16:37

privy to what happens behind legislative closed doors but I will say we do have full support of the president the cabinet and the legislators and you know this is a jurisdiction that has like I said a long history in

03:16:51

shipping and Maritime and just corporate law and they also recognize that the blockchain is it's not the future it's now and so if they want to participate and continue as a going concern right

03:17:05

you kind of have to mix it up please it's a great question um we're we're actually taught so I don't know I can't answer on behalf of them but it's a very important topic for

03:17:24

them because I don't know how much how many of you know about the Marshall Islands but it's located between Hawaii and Japan so it's out in the middle very far away from here and during World War

03:17:35

II a lot of those islands were taken advantage of by the United States surprise prize and so there's a lot of cleanup that's happening there I mean Marshall Islands is a Sovereign Nation

03:17:48

and a lot of those other Islands have gained their sovereignty as well but that's a very very important topic for them and we have somebody in our project in our company that's

03:18:00

actually a former diplomat from the Marshall Islands that's working on these types of topics in projects and I would just say they're they're very near and dear to the Marshall Islands

03:18:12

and if it's something that you or anyone else wants to talk about with me or to bring to the government would be happy to broker discussion there because it's something that they feel very strongly about

03:18:26

so yeah um I got a little off topic there but I want to talk about what's relevant to you guys and so just in the spirit of time we'll just kind of wrap things up

03:18:37

with the biggest risks to Founders and members of a Dao and I think we covered on some of those topics earlier when when I first opened was if the Dow project that you're currently

03:18:50

participating in voting in you're a multi-sigan if that Dow doesn't have some type of legal rapper or you don't know if it does I would encourage you to

03:19:03

ask and find out if it does because in the eyes of the law whatever activities that you are performing and they could all be very well intentioned and goodwilled but again

03:19:17

you know we're working with people from all across the globe there's people with different backgrounds and we're all different and so we don't necessarily know we can think that we

03:19:30

know what motivates Somebody But at the end of the day we don't we don't know everything right and so we can put as much of this on chain as possible but as long as humans are involved we are all flawed we all get triggered we

03:19:43

disagree so there there will always be issues and we will always need humans involved here but it's just to say if you do participate in a doubt I would encourage you to ask either the legal

03:19:55

Guild or anyone within the team to say hey do we have a legal rapper and if you don't just ask why it you know it might be that you decide you're not going to have one

03:20:08

but the thing is if you are using money's voting or have like a governance token and there's some utility or value tied to that in the eyes of the law if you don't have

03:20:22

some type of legal rapper and something did go wrong or a member went rogue or just somebody ghosted and you're multi-cig you can't get access to it you have no claim over that you have

03:20:37

no protection and and maybe some of us don't care about that but I would say the higher the stakes you should really make sure you ask those types of questions because it's not only for you but it's for everybody else that you

03:20:49

encourage and invite into web3 um you want to make sure that we're helping people and not putting people In Harm's Way and I don't say that to like put the fear in anyone I just say it for myself even

03:21:03

um I was involved in another Dao and I actually didn't I opted out not to be a multi-sig because there was no legal wrapper for that Dao and I just didn't want to be

03:21:15

there was exposure there and I could just you know the whole okidao thing happened and I thought hang on before I get involved in that I'd like to know more yeah you had a question yeah

03:21:29

oh okay yeah yeah absolutely and so yeah I mean so so those are really my big points are making sure that you all know that there

03:21:41

are lots of choices out there if you did need a legal rapper and I would just say don't go with what seems so obvious like have a conversation with a lawyer we know one

03:21:55

in the audience now you can ask her um well okay but we we can put you in touch with like there's over 350 lawyers that we work with and like I said 99.9

03:22:07

of them all talk to you for 30 minutes for free so if you need someone to talk to or you want me to give you five people to talk to I'm happy to do it and um it's not for the lawyers to just make

03:22:20

Bank off of us it's so that we're all doing the right things and not tripping over each other right because there's a lot of good examples um like I mentioned maker Dow earlier like there's good examples of what some

03:22:33

big pillars in this industry are doing and I think they set the tone for a lot of other people to like copy what they're doing with this whole series Dao LLC thing which allows you to have a Dao

03:22:46

and then birth new sub-dials underneath it with each one of those Dows having their own governance model which is really cool oh yeah yeah we yeah we're we're friendly with them we know them yes yeah

03:23:02

what they're doing is very cool too they're automating pretty much everything you can just buy directly on their website whatever jurisdiction you want is that what you're talking about yeah yeah so they are we're partners and

03:23:16

um we're currently working to add the Marshall Islands to their list of fully automated so yeah we're a big fan I just have a question I

03:23:30

I wait I have a question if you're not even if you are American but especially if you're not again not legal advice but why would

03:23:42

anyone set up a legal entity in the United States possibly exposing any Global person that participates in your Dow to those three to like SEC IRS yeah

03:23:55

like why would you do that and the US is just not a very friendly jurisdiction right now maybe it will I think it will eventually get there but yeah I I think it's like weed right

03:24:09

Colorado is sort of famous for you can smell it in the air and everything but what happens if you cross the border or if a federal agent disagrees with what

03:24:22

you're doing now all of a sudden that statutory protection doesn't really hold a lot of weight for you anymore and it's the same thing for these doubts you know I don't I don't want to poo poo

03:24:35

any particular jurisdiction but um the U.S just doesn't seem like the friendliest place right now and the laws aren't very clear and so that's why we see lots of web3 projects looking to do

03:24:48

what I said like legal Arbitrage and that just means like add another legal jurisdiction to help like you know patch the holes in some of the activities that they're doing so yeah I mean I covered lots of

03:25:02

different topics here and I really appreciate the audience's participation because I think you add a lot of really colorful and valuable information I don't know if anyone has specific questions for me for like my Dao the

03:25:14

Marshall Islands bankless Dao or even FTW now I'm happy to answer them I'm happy to take questions after if you like but I would just like to thank you all and

03:25:26

yeah thank you so much thanks [Applause] [Music] all right everybody manifest we've uh

03:25:41

We've made it through another series of uh life-changing informationals uh thank you so much for being with us we are going to continue the programming after a delicious and scrumptious meal break

03:25:56

uh please digest everything that you've learned so far today while you digest that food and uh feel free to ask some of the speakers to continue their

03:26:07

lessons with you uh remember uh Safety and Security is not just something you get through legal practices but also through engaging with the right company organizations and members of your

03:26:21

community so uh grateful to have you all here and looking forward to the meal together cheers friends foreign [Music] [Music]

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it seems it can so to the crew out there if you want to just help there to bring the rest of the people we are like 10 fellows here I'm sure that people are like just distracted or out of the

04:49:53

social interactions but right now we are starting with the crowd that we have here so please welcome orishimani space he was an early member of the

04:50:11

first centralized service Guild that is still standing so far that's the orc check the ark he's also founder of mechanisms Institute co-founder of polyrup he's a patron form of metaphan

04:50:24

of the meta fast of metagame for everything so thank you Ari and he'll be talking today about the Practical lessons from the past few years of

04:50:37

coordinating Ori all yours all right let's get started how we doing cool so we're gonna try to avoid theory for a

04:50:56

bit and just get into the nitty-gritties of how to coordinate crypto economically so how many people are familiar with this room how many people don't know what room

04:51:15

this is nice a good split so this was Project cyber sin an experiment in Salvador allende's Chile

04:51:26

1971-73. the idea here was to run the national economy through a decentralized network of computers and what was called Telex machines

04:51:41

now this is a pretty radical idea at the time Salvador Allende was the first democratically elected socialist president in the world and he ran on this campaign of a new way

04:51:52

to run the economy unlike previous command and control communist socialist attempts to plan economic production Salvador Allende wanted to use the people's

04:52:05

wisdom and information ideally real-time information feeds to cybernetically manage the economy now cybernetics was this newish field at

04:52:17

the time of looking at systems as these control flows so thinking about how different information inputs and then modulation of information and then feeding that

04:52:30

back into systems can yield interesting designs and how to look at anything from biological systems to economies to machines using the same framework that

04:52:43

can work at different fractal scales so I under brought in uh British cybernetician Stafford beer to help them he was a kind of a Management Consultant at the time helping large corporations

04:53:00

integrate cybernetics into their uh design structure and so Stafford uh worked with his team with Fernando Flores who's walking with him here and a whole kind of team in

04:53:14

Santiago on designing this approach to managing the economy that would rely on not computers but Telex machines because they could have only afford one computer so they had these machines which kind of

04:53:28

just like feed data they're kind of these like dumb computers and they would put these Telex machines at all the factories and then they had the control room which we saw before that would in real time visualize and synthesize the

04:53:40

information from all of the Telex machines around the country to let the the people sitting in this room know if there's a crisis if there's a shortage or there's

04:53:53

um a strike or something like that they have to respond to with government intervention yeah so unfortunately um in 73 there was a coup and the room

04:54:05

was destroyed so we'll never know how well it worked how well it would have worked it actually was never operational people never really sat in the room and controlled the economy in this way but it was an ambitious vision and it's

04:54:19

inspired a lot of thinking and cybernetics since then and cybernetics has been used since then to like I said analyze all these different kinds of systems I think it's easy to think about these like really

04:54:33

basic ones like a thermostat about how the information kind of goes in and then it knows if it should keep the heat on or turn the cool cooling down all these subsystems that work together to achieve

04:54:46

some sort of outcome or even a game like Monopoly and what I think is interesting about the kind of emergence of crypto is it basically is this whole new medium that

04:55:00

we can now use to do cybernetics whereas before you had to collaborate with a massive Corporation or a national government to implement any of these systems on the social front now you can

04:55:13

code a smart contract or use an app that lets you like spin up a smart contract without even being Technical and you can run these experiments on modulating different information flows

04:55:26

that have economic significance and of course they have economic significance because the blockchain solves the double spend problem and we can now represent value digitally without uh permission to Overlord

04:55:39

so yeah my basic premise and why I'm excited about mechanism designed generally in crypto economics is that we really have this barely explored terrain of experimentation for new kinds of

04:55:52

political and economic systems governance money all sorts of things and yeah to make this more tangible I I want to compare like the what people

04:56:03

typically call like web 2 and web3 I think it's better to just think about like the web and crypto but basically the web unlocked all these new forms of information circulation right whereas

04:56:16

before you might have like a telephone or a TV or a radio you know with the web you start to have these multimodal many-to-many formats for sharing information

04:56:28

and now with crypto we can do the same thing with value so we have kind of this infinite like canvas upon which to design new and creative ways to circulate share create represent destroy

04:56:41

value and we've already seen some of these in the space people love their airdrops their nft membership badges but I I kind

04:56:52

of have a concern that people overfit on the first few years of experimentation forgetting that this is a gigantic blank canvas and really smart contracts at their core are just computer programs

04:57:03

that can self-execute so you can design you can build anything into a smart contract I mean even the the concept of a token is relatively new of course there was Bitcoin but with ethereum in the early

04:57:16

days when people were thinking about the ethereum the world computer the smart contract platform tokens were only one of many kind of ideas that were being thrown around like smart locks if you remember slocket they were doing like

04:57:30

locks that could open based on Smart contracts that they'd be reading from to tell you if you're an owner or not of the property so this concept like smart property which we really haven't seen resurged since maybe 2016 when that

04:57:43

project was worked on there's also prediction markets which you know augur and gnosis have tried to do it's been difficult because prediction markets have a lot of dependencies that we haven't made yet

04:57:55

robust in the space yeah so now I want to go into the actual like lessons uh from more so the Practical experience of working with these kinds of systems

04:58:07

and so yeah the first one I think this is the overarching one that you'll see kind of play into lots of the other points being made here is that good systems start with simple rules basically there's this point from the

04:58:20

systems Bible which uh Galls law it's called which is basically that these complex systems that you see out there in the wild whether it's in when I say wild I mean human organizations or

04:58:33

natural systems they didn't start that way they're complex because of the internal Logics responding to external environmental variables over time and surviving that whole process and then

04:58:45

like ending up with all these complex systems so one mistake I see a lot of times with people that are going uh from zero to one and designing a system is they're convinced it has to be super complicated they're like oh what we're

04:58:58

doing here is so revolutionary and it's so complicated we need to you know build this really elaborate Cathedral with all these like knobs and whistles and bells and all these different runes and they

04:59:11

spend a lot of time before even launching anything that anyone uses with this Grand systems thinking approach I've only seen these kinds of efforts fail and I think we've seen in the space

04:59:22

the power of simplicity so for example uniswap launched as just a simple constant product amm it did one thing and one thing only and it did it well and then they learn some things and then

04:59:35

you have univ too and now you don't just have to swap your c20s you can also support native eth and then you have uni V3 and you have kind of different ways of representing liquidity positions and

04:59:48

concentrated liquidity and different mechanisms like that and then a few months ago univ4 came out or at least the specification with hooks and modular price curves and all these new

05:00:00

directions for how swapping will work but the point being made here which I think I've kind of made is that if they started with his grand grand idea of being the ultimately ultimate liquidity

05:00:12

layer for the internet and trying to build that vision from day one you know they wouldn't have gotten anywhere some quick other examples you have maluk Dao which took a super simple approach to what it means to make a Dao and then and

05:00:26

it was immutable right and then they did V2 and now they're doing V3 and each one successively has had much more uh utility and popularity and whatnot also with diorg the service Collective the Gustavo mentioned that I've been a part

05:00:38

of we also started very simple um and then I'll touch on it later but increasingly became more complex and if you look at our handbook now of how it works it's pretty complicated but it it

05:00:51

makes sense if it wouldn't have made sense to start like that but that was after four years yeah relatedly I think uh people try to build too much at the same time instead

05:01:04

of focusing on just like one core Innovation so with the same examples I mentioned uniswap.org we have one core mechanism in dwork for example what's every dollar you earn you earn one non-transferable

05:01:16

reputation token everything else there's a lot more but that's all like derived from that core mechanism with unit swap it's amm with Malak it's rage quit and tribute

05:01:29

this is another mistake that I've seen a lot of projects made I don't think you need to start closed but there is this assumption in web3 that you need to be fully open and scale really quickly right away you need to have you know

05:01:41

anyone can buy the token to get in um there needs to be a Discord with with 5000 people again you want to build something not just simple but for real people for

05:01:53

actual even if it's just five people right it helps to actual real users real stakeholders who need what you're building the difference between malloc and DOW Frameworks that came before it

05:02:05

is that molok had a need they were trying to get web 3 angels together to fund the development of eth 2.0 this was in 2019 when it was still uncertain whether we would get there and they made a way simpler Dow

05:02:19

framework than the three major ones out at the time and it became more popular more quickly because it was targeted that one use case rather than making a framework that was trying to anticipate the desired needs of

05:02:31

hypothetical users this is kind of a separate point about creativity and not copying necessarily the mechanisms that are popular now but looking further Beyond web3 and even

05:02:47

Beyond mainstream the Western capitalism for models of how to run organizations of how to design uh economic transactions how to design marketplaces how to think

05:02:59

about identity this could take a while to go through so I'll Breeze through it and you can take a picture but I think that the design space of tokens again is overly narrow on the first the the top left and the

05:03:16

top and the bottom left quadrant here so basically tokens Can Be tradable or they could be not tradable they could be fungible or they could be not fungible and across that you get okay these

05:03:28

tokens you can send them to anyone but they're unique right that's like the title to your house or that's like a domain name and then there's non-tradable non-fungible tokens this is a unique token that I can't just send to

05:03:41

anyone it's like my passport mine is not like yours we can't just swap them and have them both work and then in the realm of fungible tokens this means you know any one token can be traded for any other one there's no

05:03:54

unique qualities to any unit uh we have like shares in companies or governance tokens or even currencies and then for the non-tradable the ones that you can't move they actually mean

05:04:08

something about you this is things like your FICO score like a credit score or like Reddit Karma or like an Uber driver rating and so I think systems can have multiple of these uh layered into one another

05:04:20

again I would start simple but I would remember that this is like a broader thinking then okay we need to do an nft we need to do a token another mistake I see a lot is thinking

05:04:33

about supply side before demand side if we're going down the um path of tokens so demand side is why do people want this why do they need this what role does this play in the system that's being designed and at a high level

05:04:46

there's three types of utility that someone might want to hold a digital unit for it's decision making rights and it's some sort of economic rights or some sort of access rights and the third

05:04:57

would also include like currency tokens because you can access some sort of good and service and then of course there there needs to be some rules around who gets the tokens and how this could be like a one-time

05:05:12

issuance airdrop style but I think there's way more interesting design space around like long-term algorithmic uh distribution of Rights and you can look at people who have contributed to building the system people who have

05:05:24

contributed Capital to the system and then people who are like using the system in different ways this is a general principle uh more from Academia but it's more related to governance design and and thinking about

05:05:37

how different systems can have different actors responsible for them in diorg for example um we have an accountant that has certain powers over um our bookkeeping and we have a

05:05:50

marketing uh unit that's responsible for our social feeds right it's not every one of these things has to be governed by the Dao you can have different centers of power and you can have the sales unit that's responsible for

05:06:02

business development and this is a longer more complicated uh addition but this is how Dior works today and I think subsidiarity is another useful concept which is pushing decision making down to the lowest possible level so we have autonomous

05:06:17

multi-cigs that all control funds and then they share funds with like a mother multi-sig and then there's governance and then the distribution of powers amongst roles on the right

05:06:29

great so I'm going to pass the examples but I think there's some cool like non-token mechanisms out there like uh for incentivizing people to show up to events for example they'll get slashed

05:06:41

if they don't show up they'll get them kick back if they do show up or different auction mechanisms for blending kind of like selling a product with uh fundraising and then giving

05:06:53

governance to those yeah this is a novel public goods funding mechanism called hyper certs and then Nexus mutual and several other kind of uh risk

05:07:04

markets have models where basically you you leverage the wisdom of the crowd to price risk on different events and then sell cover on those risks happening instant governance is a concept from one inch that has broader applicability

05:07:18

which is instead of discrete proposals yes no do we switch the fee from 0.2 to 0.3 percent you have a token weighted median of all the stakers and what values they want for the token or for

05:07:30

the for the parameters and in real time the smart contract is updating those so I think we're going to see a lot more or we should see a lot more of those algorithmic decision-making mechanisms as well as incentivize decision making

05:07:42

and intelligently incentivized decision making so this is the project I'm working on now to formalize some of these insights so we've been uh collab like collecting a library of different mechanism design

05:07:55

Primitives trying to come up with a pattern language of how you could look at this entire design space as a unified system that you could then pull different kinds of components from to design intelligent mechanisms and solve

05:08:09

problems with those you have value transfer mechanisms foreign fundraising mechanisms no more time signaling

05:08:25

governance Market design and value capture thank you and speak to me if you'd like to hear more about the mechanism Institute thank you very much hurry so questions

05:08:45

please do it of the panel right now we are gonna welcome Phil Phil what is Phil here is Phil please a blouse to feel

05:08:58

Drive the design and implementation of Novel participation and governance mechanisms he's also part of the old Turk and the ethereum France Association maybe and he sent it myself more for

05:09:12

labs today he's gonna talk about rethinking legitimacy agency and bureaucracy in Dallas how are you doing there field you still yeah

05:09:25

so just sometimes I don't know already left maybe some okay here it is so play Supply still feel hey

05:09:39

gonna try not to destroy this all right so uh hi uh Dao fellows I guess uh everyone is uh quite uh used to engage with those here

05:10:00

uh if that's the case probably you will agree you will agree with me that the power structures in those are very much a work in progress [Music]

05:10:12

um we assume that they are decentralized but very often we wonder are there really decentralized or are they decentralized enough should they be more

05:10:24

decentralized and what does that even mean to be decentralized and this is the question that is related to legitimacy because as part of Dallas as Dao members

05:10:37

we accept the authority of a group as long as it's decentralized otherwise what's the point of being part of a dial right and of course there are issues decentralization of the power can mean

05:10:52

many things very often the decentralization is a mask a theater that's an expression that is often used and the reality of the power can be centralized

05:11:04

because for instance it it used tokenvelty which is a plutocratic system so people can buy their influence and can be re-centralized through token voting

05:11:17

buying decision buying influence but it can be also in apparent formally totally decentralized while behind you have some social dynamics and he learned

05:11:31

a power game that makes the whole appearance of a decentralized crypto system a fantasy so because of that it's super important to know what we mean by decentralization

05:11:44

to know if we can trust and if we can accept the power that is being implemented as a decentralized system and I'm realizing that I'm doing all the talk with the cover slide which is a

05:11:58

slight problem because I have many more slides but I'll switch to the efficiency part um it's interesting to think that uh when we have a decentralized system it's

05:12:10

often criticized actually it was criticized today fairly enough as a inefficient system and the more it's decentralized the more it risk to be inefficient it's often them

05:12:22

as Celtic and decisions are slow to be made and people are uninformed and uneducated but still they are voice their their point of view and all that

05:12:36

kind of stuff leads to some form of inefficiency so the more you the the structure is decentralized the more it can be inefficient and there is some sort of weird Loop because if a

05:12:49

system if an organization is less efficient that another type of organization the hierarchy based one the traditional business organization then what's the point using them and they lose their legitimacy by the very fact

05:13:02

that they are decentralized uh but I won't be uh I will try not to be theoretical as much as you actually

05:13:14

so um I'm a practitioner I'm a dow Builder and uh I'll try to go through some aspect of what we building at Mangrove which is a work in progress a

05:13:28

defy protocol that aims to be a Dao and the solutions that we came up with in order to tackle this sort of problems and I'll go through that through I I'll do that through three main statement the

05:13:42

first one is Protocols are platforms I'll go into details about that and then two statement two argument one converting cannot work and the second one which is more related

05:13:55

to the efficiency part which is Grant missed the point but I'm using Grant as an example and as some sort of trick to introduce my point no it's another one unfortunately there

05:14:09

are two more Groove dials I think the in the future there will be many dowels with the same name but we are the first occurrence of earlier and uh we complained the IP Bureau of the Department of decentralization in

05:14:22

Berlin but they didn't want to do anything okay protocol that platforms so by protocols I mean in general web 3 Protocols of course you can you know expand that to other type of protocols

05:14:34

and platforms web platforms so more like web2 if you want and uh obviously they are somewhat similar and the first observation is

05:14:46

that in both case there is some sort of infrastructure that is common there is a software infrastructure it can be more than software but there is at the heart of those things an infrastructure that is software and with this infrastructure

05:15:00

on top of it people are building products and they do stuff above it right so that's the case in both situation and there is a traditional way to consider platforms web platforms that

05:15:13

come for from the Harvard Business Review which is most of the time they are double-sided so of course you have multi-sided marketplaces and platform but to keep things simple here this is

05:15:25

the the way they show up as double-sided marketplaces you have one part which is the consumer part which is the demon part where people interact with the marketplace or the platform in order to

05:15:39

consume room to access goods and services so they are delivered by the platform and are provided by the other type of stakeholders the producers right and you can think of all the web

05:15:52

platform that we know the PayPal the Etsy the YouTube and whatnot and then you have the third type of stakeholders which are the owners and The Operators of the platform they are

05:16:04

together the same and the control who can access and other which terms of use people can actually behave as a producer or as a consumer of

05:16:16

the marketplace of the platform and this is an intentionally mix of uh different type of platforms and protocol you can see names that everyone knows maybe the one that is less knowledge

05:16:31

it's more growth but I used it as an example as well of the protocol the web 3 protocol so this is a D5 protocol but you can have uni swap you can have ens you can have git coin as an other

05:16:43

example of in all these cases you have the producers item the office side and the demand side and you have the traditional app stores Facebook and whatnot of the world

05:16:55

so what's uh the issue with that and to which extent to the uh are they similar to which extent they start to be a bit different at least in the idea so to to

05:17:09

give the explanation and explain why I'm truly I'm comparing them I'm going to go back to this famous article by Chris Dixon called why decentralization matter I'm getting sure many of you read it at

05:17:23

the time so this was this idea that platforms had a life cycle and when they start they need to attract both sides demonside and offer side otherwise it does not work right if you

05:17:35

have I don't know Uber with only drivers it's not going to work long and the drivers are going to go back to to something else so you need to have both sides and quickly it's uh it's a race

05:17:47

they raise a lot of money in order to do whatever they can in order to attract quickly a critical mass of users on both sides and in order to do that successfully

05:17:58

they they reduce the friction so they have super slick ux and they have low cost or no cost low friction everywhere economically and in terms of human

05:18:10

factors they attract users once the Dominator Market or once they start to succeed when they start to succeed then the thing change because they have to return

05:18:25

their to provide the return on investment they are by Nature private corporation that needs to generate profit for the shareholders so they are going to start to extract

05:18:39

value as opposed to attract users and this is well known it affects all the systems that we know all the platform that we know from I don't know from since on the user side Facebook changing the terms of use of WhatsApp in order to

05:18:52

monetize more personal data or on the offer side regarding the relationship between the platform and the uh producers Twitter shutting down their

05:19:07

API in order to put out of business the other clients or Amazon competing with is Sellers and so on and so forth so it's very perverse in a way but it's

05:19:19

kind of it's the game the problem with this game is that we actually Japan increasingly on this platform to live they are global and they penetrate every

05:19:31

aspect of our Digital Life and increasingly our physical life as well right the place the the magnitude of Amazon in terms of Commerce is incredible

05:19:42

we communicate with this platform we get educated with this platform we get our food we transport with this platform so there are pervasive and having something that is so in intrinsically predatory

05:19:55

with in relationship with both producers and consumers is a big problem the solution that Chris was suggesting was building crypto Networks the idea was

05:20:08

that makes things simple give to everyone the same the same tool to align their interest give them tokens and by giving them tokens everyone will

05:20:21

have an aligned interest in the success of the network everyone will be able to actually influence the network and again in the appreciation of the price of the network

05:20:34

so that was an idea and it does not work but here this is the idea I'm sorry it does not show very clearly but you have producers consumers and operators that are everyone is owners and everyone is

05:20:48

happy right uh so not so much converting cannot work so that's my stance here on my on my what I'm arguing

05:20:59

uh we all have many approaches against coin voting token voting uh there are many articles including vitalix one about all the drawbacks of convertings

05:21:12

and increasingly as I was saying at the beginning this is a plutocratic system so it has all the issue that we we can imagine of a plutocratic system but this is not my

05:21:24

point my point is that if tokens have been invented in order to distribute ownership and to solve the problem that I mentioned before then this is a failure by definition the reason why it's a failure is that

05:21:39

you have two scenarios people get tokens as users either consumers or producers and then either they are not interested because they're as a producer they won't grow their business they don't care about this [ __ ] token or our users

05:21:53

they want to use the service and they don't care about the token if it's an airdrop well cool I'm gonna sell it and I'm going you know have some cash and do something else with it so as a user's receiving tokens doesn't

05:22:07

make sense uh as a consumer or as a producer it makes sense as a shareholder so I can become a shareholder but then I'm no longer a user I'm no longer a

05:22:20

producer no consumer I'm just a shareholder and I want indeed the token price to increase because I'm changed I switch I shifted my mindset and I'm now

05:22:32

part of the game in terms of I want this to succeed have a financial interest in the success of the project and I'm not looking at it anymore as a producer or as a consumer

05:22:47

so the answer that we are considering atmograph is using multi-stakeholder governance which is a different system that is quite not familiar to crypto [Music]

05:23:00

designers or not so much used even though there are a few thank you there are a few experiments um but we think that it's actually a system

05:23:14

that is proven in more traditional settings so I'm going to go quickly through three examples International Organization most of the time large International organizations that need to

05:23:27

create consensus on the way they work like for instance standard bodies here you have the example of w3c so the organization that defined the standards of the web https HTTP and so on

05:23:40

they work with multi-stakeholder governance system they mix people that are individual that are companies that are non-profit that are public or governmental agencies and all of these

05:23:53

different type of people work together and decide together another very famous system is of course the two house systems that we have in most of our democracies in the US the UK Germany France you name it

05:24:06

most of the modern democracies I have two Chambers like the House of Representative and and the senate in the US and the idea of those two houses is to create checks and balances and to

05:24:19

include two different views that enrich the decision-making process and the deliberation process like for instance in the US the house of representatives represent the people

05:24:31

whereas the Senate represent the states right it's two different views so it's a check and balance and at the macroeconomic level in Germany you have this thing called code determination that makes it mandatory

05:24:44

for large medium and large corporations to actually include employees in a board with the shareholders so the shareholders cannot decide everything unilateral and it works not that bad right in

05:24:57

Germany and Cooperative I put them aside actually because I don't consider that there are multi-stakeholder governance there are except there are some form like the skip in France this kick so you

05:25:11

have different classes of stakeholders and different groups of Cooperative members but here I'm really referring to groups of different views right so if you have all

05:25:22

members that have one vote but they are all the same type of people with the same interest yeah um how much time do I have okay challenging so I guess we won't

05:25:37

talk about efficiency today but uh yeah uh just one word about how we envision multi-stakeholder multi-stakeholder governance at Mangrove so in a nutshell Mongrel is a D5

05:25:50

protocol it's a DEX it's a programmable Dax so we did what uh we shouldn't have done according to this uni swap Vision that I quite agree with but we went to the complicated part right from the

05:26:02

start right and so the idea of Mangrove is that actually it's a programmable Dax you make offers on the book by attaching a code a piece of code or solidity code

05:26:14

so that you can create strategies that run on the book on channel so it makes without entering into the detail it means that we have three different type of stakeholders the people building the

05:26:25

ecosystem and the actual exchange and the actual protocol we have people that are going to use it as people you know doing trades or using the projects that can be built upon that and then we have all the people all the

05:26:38

strategies the developers that can actually build completely new product in this new design space and that we want to incentivize and that we want to welcome and attract but then what we want to do is have them

05:26:52

part of the government the governance and have them Protected Their interests being protected by the governance and have some kind of setup that makes sure that Minority protection is actually

05:27:06

active so this is and I will stop on this one you have three tiers here operators there are the traditional people building the platform and the

05:27:18

ecosystem so in our case right now it's the core team but the core team will be it's partially decentralized there's not one company but there are about 20 independent people but it will be more

05:27:30

and more decentralized but it will be a small scale group meaning that we don't need a consensus that relies on token voting we know each other and even even if we go up to 100 on 150 people we can

05:27:44

have procedures that take into account that people know each other and we don't need trustless mechanism to make decisions then we have consumers and investors and practically everyone else

05:27:55

we still have token voting people can have the token of the platform and can actually see it as an investment and also as a way to influence the the platform

05:28:09

and then we have the last group which are the builders the strategies the developers that are going to implement new products in this new design space and in their case we have another way to

05:28:22

create a consensus and to distribute voting power which is measuring on-chan the actual economic value that they produce by triggering transaction there are transaction fees so we can exactly

05:28:35

measure the influence and the contribution of each member of this class of producers yeah and I'm going to stop here I'll be happy to discuss more if someone is

05:28:47

interested and to talk about efficiency another day thank you very much thank you very much Phil [Applause] [Music]

05:29:04

okay I don't know if the visual team is behind there or it's here I don't know why I'll feel maybe well Daniel will set up I don't know if there are some questions from the public

05:29:18

any question here landscape please Phil how do you make sure that there's no collusion between

05:29:33

the wealth oh I think it's ready to I know there's a there's a okay there's no collusion between the wealth and the revenue as in can I be the owner of the platform

05:29:48

Plus have a strategy and funnel my Capital through my strategy so it will fake it'll generate fake Revenue because it'll end up on me anyway yeah and in this way I managed to attack the

05:30:03

governance in in that in that particular way so technically actually you can be the three member of the three right so you can play your cards and try to influence

05:30:15

by being boss uh mgv the the r token token holder and also part of the core team and also why not build some kind of product and get some Revenue but intrinsically there will be more

05:30:27

distribution and it will be the distribution will be um by nature in the producer side it will be quite the genie coefficient will be

05:30:40

low unless there is a super successful project that managed to get you know attract all the voting power this is why we have plan in this case to have some

05:30:53

sort of ceilings of the proportion of vote that can be done in a particular class of watching but yeah detailed to secure the system I see your point and your concerned I think it's a real one but we have ways to address it perfect

05:31:07

thank you thank you have the code here I have a question matching your clicking Point like this is the next thing we should be working on

05:31:34

uh so in in short I've been an entrepreneur and at some point I had a company that was no longer working and I looked for ways to actually decentralize it and return it to a community of Open

05:31:48

Source developers and Builders right and that will happen to be an interesting way at the time so that's the story thank you very much

05:31:59

thank you Phil a pleasure Phil please [Applause] do you have a question Phil's gone Phil um

05:32:16

is is code law is code law isn't it yeah I don't know I'm a big fan of classic so

05:32:32

in his sense yes okay if someone is interested in following traps we have a trap here on our facilities just look at the signs so

05:32:48

yes our next speaker is Daniel ospina Daniel has defined hisself as a governance nerd he's also an organization designer and he will be

05:33:01

talking today about Dao's 2.0 overcoming challenges and the Dao Renaissance he represent mistake Learners and Visions for the future of dolls after

05:33:15

some month of resurgence in Darwin and bringing learnings across web tree thank you John thank you thank you guys [Applause] oh

05:33:28

um I'm gonna take hers on on a quick Journey I'll try to be on time probably won't uh about where why this thing makes sense and not only

05:33:39

within the social cultural context of web free but within the broader context of humanity and what is trying to happen so it's going to be very much first principles from that I'm going to talk

05:33:53

about a series of challenges that we still have and finally triangulate a little bit between what we're seeing across all our research and all the examples and what's

05:34:04

emerging within web free and also outside web free that it starts to coalesce into a picture of what really the future of organizations can look like or more

05:34:17

precisely the future of a new organizational form that or thesis is that it will take over corporations for the majority of use cases that right now

05:34:30

corporations thrive on so taking it from the beginning the question is why organizations why do we organize and I mean here organizations in the broad sense of the world uh as

05:34:42

like why do people come together and he's well very simply we have needs that we cannot solve in isolation or at least we cannot do very well so we come together and coordinate with other

05:34:53

people who have different needs and this is the key is we've been institutionalized into the idea of mission purpose and all of these web 2 trends and I could go a little bit more at length to explain where this is

05:35:07

coming from but if we look very much at the basics it's just not true that an organization has a single purpose an organization before it is an organization is different humans

05:35:20

that come together and you'll have the investors and they have capital and they want to return an investment and you have the workers and they have time and labor and skills and they want to be paid for that labor and pay bills and do

05:35:34

a series of other things and progress their careers and learn and etc etc you have users they want to receive a service or product or some sort of offering and that's why they engage with the organization so we're not talking about a single purpose we're talking

05:35:47

about the multitude of purposes a multitude of needs and aspirations that are coming together and that are catalyzing the organization because these people actually need to work together to be able to satisfy their

05:36:00

needs effectively over time and if they're not able to do this the organization collapses or at least it collapses the moment that someone finds a better alternative somewhere else a better job offer a better product a

05:36:13

better investment opportunity A Better Community to participate on they will migrate so we have this evolutionary system that as we get better organizational forms the bad offers will

05:36:25

naturally die obviously this doesn't happen super quick but it happens so taking it from there the issue is that we can we have now uh quite a bit of

05:36:37

disappointment in the house but if we have nowhere to go back corporations are effective but they're also really really toxic and everyone who goes like oh yeah maybe we should

05:36:50

build code operations on chain you can ask them do you remember how that was like did you ever work in one of those things like do you actually want that I mean maybe if you're in a position of power

05:37:02

and can control the system to have a little bit more Comfort than everyone else but when we have a war on Thailand when we have a whole bunch of different competing options do you really think

05:37:14

that a system where 72 percent of entrepreneurs have mental health issues 50 of employees suffer from depression or so or show symptoms of depression and

05:37:26

over 80 percent of people are more interested in looking through the window and just quickly getting their paycheck than actually caring about what their job is is a broken system like fundamentally

05:37:38

dysfunctional we're talking about almost eight trillion dollars a year wasted because we don't care and we don't care

05:37:50

because the system will never be able to make us care in the way it is designed the incentives are just not there it would be absurd to care when you're working in a corporation you

05:38:04

can care about your bonus bonus are nice but they don't last these sort of incentives you always need a bigger bonus and so these corporations end up competing on paying ever bigger bonuses and it's just tremendously inefficient

05:38:17

so meanwhile the people who are meant to be providing us with Solutions are kind of stuck providing Band-Aids and so we have the opportunity to optimize tasks and now with AI and so on

05:38:31

the Microsoft acquisition all of these kind of things we're like yes we're gonna drive all of these efficiencies the thing is it doesn't matter how efficient you make me when I can when I prefer to look through the window

05:38:45

rather than doing my job because I don't care about my job I can make the task faster oh fantastic now I have more time to chat with my friends on social media so the actual organizational performance

05:38:56

doesn't increase because you're increasing you're optimizing for task efficiency as opposed to meaning as opposed to engagement as opposed to team performance so it's completely the wrong

05:39:08

mental model and corporations know this and bosses realize this stuff so what happens they go oh remote work is bad because my people are slacking no one is actually doing their work I have an idea let me measure how often they type in

05:39:21

their keyboard and if they stop typing then they're not going to get their bonus or I'm gonna fire them so we have this whole symptom of control Tech or boss wear that is growing and this is massive and we don't talk about it

05:39:34

because it's not sexy in social media no one can be like I am Mission driven entrepreneur creating control Tech but it sells and it sells a lot and it tells you increasingly more just we don't talk

05:39:46

about it right the issue with control Tech is that same as key cards when you tap into a door and you have to tap and verify that you're going to your work it reinforces a mental pattern that this

05:39:58

organization is an outsider from you who's imposing on you certain behaviors carrot and stick extrinsic incentives extrinsic incentives undermine the

05:40:11

intrinsic incentives they kill the joy of working they disengage you so it becomes a vicious cycle a downward spiral requiring more and more control

05:40:23

of then more and more control that disengages you even more and just makes the situation worse and so we're stuck here and well hopefully we can come up with a better alternative now the thing is

05:40:36

reality and the universe have this sort of habit that it gives you a quick signal that something is not quite working on your life and you ignore it and then what it does is it kicks you in

05:40:48

the nuts like really [ __ ] hard and now we're at this moment where we've been ignoring the signals for a very long time and what we have is a tsunami of change so we have remote and hybrid work that are taking over freelancing

05:41:01

over overblown the long tail of contributors that is expanding and expanding where the people who work into a project are no longer just a core team but a mass of people who have ways to

05:41:14

add marginal value to it there was this Ted speaker that calculated that there are three trillion hours every year available from people who are surfing the internet that they could contribute to your project three trillion hours of

05:41:28

value that could be contribute autonomous teams we know they perform better this whole trend has been going for a while Jen says a new generation that's coming in and just doesn't really want to eat the [ __ ] that the previous

05:41:41

generation has been selling to us and so on and Ai and of course blockchain technology with tokenization and asset management integration and so on and let me just stop here for a second on this

05:41:52

last Trend because it makes me very hopeful for the level of disruption that's about to happen because I don't know if many of you have work in big transformation in traditional

05:42:04

organizations but a few years ago I was changing the Erp system of a company that's essentially the central logistic software that reconciles inventory with accounting with anyway all the other

05:42:17

different systems of the organization and the organization almost went bankrupt and this is not unheard of it's extremely extremely common because these systems don't really talk with one another traditional organizations have

05:42:29

one system like complete different system to manage their financial assets which is the banking system built around almost the 60s like there is still code from the 60s somewhere in there there is a completely different system for accounting inventory and so on and and

05:42:43

decision making is made on paper so it's tremendously inefficient so if nothing else we have a gigantic change opportunity here because of having a share backend the blockchain and so on that allows for compressibility and drive a whole bunch

05:42:56

of efficiencies and automations now the question is when all of these things come together and create a male storm of change like a gigantic disruption opportunity which way do we go do we go

05:43:08

the control Tech or do we go somewhere else and it's now depending on us what that Futures looked like so we have a c a model that is emerging

05:43:19

and as I was saying what we've been looking at is triangulating from three different places so we see some of the most Innovative corporations how they're starting to operate what is happening in web free endows web free communities Etc

05:43:33

and also what does the some of the leading academic researchers tell us about these topics from complexity science Network science and so on and so on and we have had some wonderful talks today as well as sharing some of these

05:43:45

principles and the good news is that all of these is pointing towards some share patterns so what are those share patterns so from the corporations we have had and this has been again this is

05:43:57

going for a while there are seeds planted everywhere you cannot point at a single example same thing when people ask you can you give me an example of a Dao it's like well not really but I can point you at a lot of great things that

05:44:09

different dials are doing now as we advance and learn from these practices can we start to bring them together and we have like like one of the long one of the fastest growing and most efficient Healthcare organizations that is using

05:44:21

autonomous teams of nurses on the ground that self-coordinate they recruit themselves and they're able to be over 50 percent more efficient financially speaking than others and people are way more engaged and patients are happier

05:44:33

too and we have as well gaming companies and the number one iot company in the world that is absolutely killing it that Jose that acquired the consumer appliances arm out of General Electrics

05:44:45

and increases profitability by 16 in one year profitability not Revenue by 16 in one year the next year goes and does it again and you know what people are happier this is not uh Oz versus them model we're starting to find some

05:44:59

patterns here now as I was going through these narrative what I was saying is corporations have been dysfunctional and when we get those we get very very stuck with the the

05:45:11

memes something is a real Dao or is not a real down let's debate what the Tao is blah blah blah blah but if we look underneath these characteristics we have something more fundamental more Timeless and also that goes beyond our industry

05:45:25

that when we're talking about decentralization we're talking about capture resistance from inside insiders and it ties perfectly well with these candles around CEO pay and how they're

05:45:37

earning over a 50x multiple from the line workers and are they actually delivering 50x value most likely not and then when the organization fails and the shareholders are up in arms because

05:45:49

their investment has gone completely to the ground the CEOs still get a golden parachute worth millions so we're talking about an Insider that captures the organization for their own benefit at the expense of everyone else we also

05:46:02

have capture resistance from Outsiders and in all the political regimes that are really toxic in this world well naturally we have an anarchist libertarian movement talking like [ __ ]

05:46:14

governments sort of thing some of them are less bad than others but generally is to say that these trend of autonomy that relates both from The Outsiders and also the really intrinsic deep desire

05:46:27

that we have to take control of our own lives to be our own Master to at least choose which mistakes we make as opposed to having some sort of paternalistic figure telling us which

05:46:38

mistakes we're meant to make and the issue is we often already know their mistakes is like these are slow motion train crashes that's why people get disengages they know it's not working they yell but there is no one listening

05:46:52

so it needs to change right and then when it comes to organizations it's satisfying the needs of the multiple stakeholders and it's not really working we have increased inequality and all the problems that comes with that but it

05:47:04

also has resonated a lot in the original version because tokens have provided liquidity and an amazing mechanism that we were able to use with icos so these Financial Innovation for incentives that manage to bring a tremendous amount of

05:47:17

capital into the industry Propel the meme however as beautiful as that Meme was there is still a lot of fundamental issues so we still have loads of capturing dials that we haven't really solved that yet we

05:47:31

have a decision execution Gap so you decide something you give a grant nothing actually happens the execution is very poor we still have a lot of innovation killer and this is more coming from traditional corporations but

05:47:43

a lot of in-group group think group group think Etc that happens in theory anyone can come and propose ideas in practice you need to invest a tremendous amount of time penetrating that social network building relationships and so on

05:47:56

and well the employee disengagement I should probably have deleted that that was when the title was something else but we actually still coming from some of the studies of contributor in Dallas the situation is still not great the

05:48:08

majority of people are going around not knowing where to go trying to find some work and they don't know how to do it and at the gov more governance layer we still have a lot of issues so still Capital Primacy we thought that giving

05:48:20

tokens to everyone was is a great solution so then users investors and workers will have tokens but what happens the workers they sell their tokens because they need to pay

05:48:32

bills the users at some point they get bored they move on they cash out who ends up with all the tokens the investors so once again fast forward two three five years and we still have only shareholders governing all of these

05:48:46

organizations then we have as through that comes all the negative externalities because the system is blind to the needs of the community and so on and so on and then that starts to create a lot of friction and troubles and so on and comes

05:48:59

regulation to try to mitigate all these camps and red tape multiplies and we're back into the same pattern having reinvented corporations on chain great Okay so we tried the first time it didn't really

05:49:11

work let's try again the the idea here that we're talking and I was saying like the promise I was starting with is that there is a new organizational form that is emerging the way we see it we call we believe that

05:49:24

it's not about solopreneurs it's not just about the individual that is augmented through some Ai and some other tools Etc because if you speak with solopreneurs and I've been one and I spoken with a bunch of them the majority

05:49:37

are miserable because it's really [ __ ] hard work and especially is really emotionally draining at the same time it's not really corporations we can talk about corporations in chain but you know I

05:49:49

covered that already we don't want to go there so is there a new possibility where we can marry the autonomy the flexibility but also the scale and the scale is really important and it's not just scale in the industrial era sense

05:50:02

of scaling up production is also about economies of scope especially when we're talking about B2B Solutions it takes tremendous amount of time to build relationships to develop customers to

05:50:17

open up those Gates so if you do it only once and then that's your only product like a startup does is tremendously wasteful you did all of that investment you have learned so much about their needs you can solve one of them

05:50:31

and what about the others where do they go so that's also why a lot of Corporations don't buy from startups a lot of big organizations don't buy from startups and those are going to be the same as they become more complex and so on they also need more complex Solutions

05:50:43

so we actually need some form of scale that is not about let me produce a million a million units of this bottle but let me deliver a complex value proposition that can address multiple

05:50:56

needs together so the patterns that we come that solve this stuff we have some principles around hierarchies of complexity and is we try the flat organization things

05:51:09

fundamentally there is still a difference between the forest and the trees if we're thinking about the forest and we're thinking about the overview or focus is going to be very different and if we're focused only on a small part of

05:51:22

it anyone who's been a programmer and a product manager you know that context switching is a different mentality it's really hard it's not even about the layer in the hierarchy you're in is a hierarchy of complexity not necessarily

05:51:34

A hierarchy of people now so when we break with that pattern we have that individuals can have roles across multiple teams and multiple levels of that hierarchy of complexity and that is just the very nature of

05:51:47

systems it has it's Timeless and we can apply it then small teams they're super productive they're really powerful and we see this pattern growing and growing across and increasingly the key capability here

05:51:59

is rapid teaming is can we take these networks and quickly coalesce around a problem to form an effective team this is something that we still haven't really cracked we're getting a lot better but it's a gigantic unlock for

05:52:13

this new organizational form that we're talking about then polycentric and emerging leadership so we can have at the local level some team leads you do want a little bit of stability this usually works fairly well now you want

05:52:25

those those leads to be accountable to the team so we have for example in hire that they can be democratically removed we use that pattern ourselves in Arendelle and there is a bunch of other systems as well where you have micro

05:52:38

micro democracies local accountability because local accountability is a lot more effective than trying to keep accountable someone that is five layers removed from you the same reason we have no clue whether a minister in the senate

05:52:50

or whatever is doing their job or not because we don't know is they're too far away from us and then as well we have individuals emerging ad hoc because doesn't matter how good your system is doesn't matter how carefully you have delineated your

05:53:03

governance and all the domains of decision making there is always going to be gaps and cracks and exceptions and here we start to have processes that serve for exception management so before exception management when you didn't

05:53:16

know what else to do you refer to the boss now we start to develop a series of techniques a series of processes that allow you to manage exceptions in daos that's usually a vote but there are more

05:53:27

sophisticated mechanisms sell the whole self-management world uses the advocacy process or consent based decision making Etc that Empower any individual to make a decision outside of the delegated

05:53:39

domains when is needed so for operational governance you can use these patterns to cover all the bases and be a lot more effective then as well the forces are starting together to have a

05:53:51

lot less plutocracy we have the backlash against the token based voting and set Etc in the web 2 world we have the French government and the even the Biden Administration and so on advocating for

05:54:02

employee representation in governance boards like again this is a cross industry cross demographic cross-section movement and we have the rise if you speak with the Democracy researchers

05:54:15

they get super excited about the idea of deliberations cities and assemblies are on the rise and they offer a better alternative that doesn't rely on delegating to a few people that become very visible and become entrenched and

05:54:28

can be brave and can be corrupt and can capture the organization so we have this sort of temporary formation of deliberative groups essentially people who talked with one another and there is actually collective intelligence because

05:54:41

they can speak they can hear the ideas of the other they can refine their thinking it's not just voting it's not just collected or aggregating intelligence it's actually collective intelligence is bringing it together more than the sum

05:54:53

of the parts so we start to have those sort of mechanisms exist the consent based decision making for opposite talk a little bit about that if anyone's interested I can talk about it in more detail multi-stakeholder governance so

05:55:05

this is representation of multiple stakeholders we have the emergence of fair shares that is a framework for cooperatives we have in web free the emergence of reputation which is essentially a way to articulate who's a worker who's a laborer and give them

05:55:17

some governance power and investors and other governance power so we have different metrics different ways to account for the level of involvement the level of Engagement of different stakeholders because it's not enough to compress all the stakeholders into one

05:55:30

we try that with Dallas V1 give everyone a token doesn't work the system disappears after time we need Timeless mechanisms that can keep and understand the different stakeholders because if you screw up any of these stakeholders

05:55:42

and the moment that you remove power from them and I insist on this point because I hear some people like oh yeah investors shouldn't have any say in decision making I'm like good luck getting investors

05:55:55

who in the right mind is going to invest into this and if they're not going to invest a lot I mean maybe one or two will get the hype and invest but in general if they're not investable then good luck trying to scale these new forms of organization we need to somehow

05:56:08

co-opt the major Capital flows and if you give them the fingers they're not going to like you very much it's kind of like the problem with it right and then as well a division of powers a Timeless mechanism embedded in all modern

05:56:22

democracies where you have the Judiciary the executive and the legislative divided so here what I'm saying is we have citizen assemblies and this sort of deliberative ad-hoc groups of people that can discuss between them and make

05:56:34

decisions as the legislative to make policy decisions governance the the rules of the game then you can have delegation and consent-based decision making for the executive and therefore the judicial we can have a series of

05:56:47

other systems quite possibly externalize to different courts making a conflict resolution mechanisms and so on and we already see the emergence of a lot of these in web free they exist as well in

05:57:00

web 2 through our private arbitration and so on and they're gaining momentum then the other pattern that feels really important here and it's kind of like the good news is that when we bring all of

05:57:12

these mechanisms together and we rethink ownership a little bit we also get exponentiality and by that I mean that the organization can be designed in such a way that it creates a feedback loop that we get token rewards for

05:57:24

contributors so not just air drops to whoever is kind of showing around or clicking a lot in your test net or something but actually those who contribute value over time you keep on rewarding them with this speculative value of the organization the token the

05:57:37

shares whatever it is that you represented with that also gives you some form of liquidity and very importantly the on-cap supply because if you properly want to account for the value of the organization you want that

05:57:50

value of the organization that accounting unit to grow as more value is contributed otherwise you are creating a system that only works for investors but try to think of a corporation that says we're never going to issue shares ever again

05:58:02

and right now we burn that possibility you're kind of you cannot predict the future you're shooting yourself in the food making a decision at the point of least information let's wait a little bit so you create these then you enable self onboarding some purposeful

05:58:15

frictions you have self-selection but then people can freely come into this you can have retroactive bounties which are super important because sometimes you don't know what the value is if

05:58:27

you're always determining the pieces of work that are valid and rewarded you will never be surprised because you're never allowing anyone to surprise you so enable people to surprise you and

05:58:39

if they surprise you reward them appropriately what does this start to create is that then more people come in contribute more value the value of the organization their value of the

05:58:51

organization grows this attracts more people that come in and Bam we have an exponential organization is the mechanism that enable Bitcoin and ethereum Etc to get as big as they are then the other thing is this starts to

05:59:04

create a whole bunch of risks and challenges so we have the idea of Open Source list open everything anyone can come in the IP is fully open and so on and that is kind of dangerous but

05:59:16

if we can be a little bit strategic about it be carefully think away from dogmas what does it allows us temporary licenses selective openness there is a series of strategies here and

05:59:27

importantly platformization which is the key concept that people can come to your organization and use it for their own means their own Vision so they can expand what your organization is about and create their own Ventures their own

05:59:39

parts of the ecosystem envisioned with the resources and the assets that you have so the organization doesn't become a controlling entity rather it becomes a platform for the imagination of the individuals to grow it with as long as

05:59:52

there is relationships of reciprocity and that's why opening everything needs to be done strategically because depending on the network effects depending on how you organize it there are some times where you can ensure reciprocity and there are some times

06:00:04

where the Bad actors of the ecosystem and the previous systems that are in place will take advantage of you so we cannot just dogmatically go one way or another we need to carefully plan it on every way so before they kill me because

06:00:16

I'm massively over time quick recap so for operations we move from hierarchies of people to networks of autonomous teams and hierarchies of complexity leadership that moves from a top-down and charismatic to polycentric and

06:00:29

emerging so multiple teams with their leaders that come together and can make bigger decisions for the whole governance moving away from top down control and plutocracy to what we're saying autonomy deliberation multi-consent multi-stakeholder

06:00:42

governance the mentality around value that is from splitting the pie and random air drops to instead growing the pie together and incentives for the long tail of contributors so we can achieve exponentiality and information that is

06:00:57

gone from all open or all close in a dogmatic way to Simply being strategic about it and thinking carefully because it's a big decision and we don't want to screw it up so thank you guys

06:01:09

um this is essentially what we're trying to enable if you want to chat some more or something about this it's very much our mission we really believe in the idea of the platform that other people can take and use it to serve their own

06:01:21

visions and Advance their own goals so if we can serve you do that into your own Pursuits in this world and so on come chat with me thank you very much [Applause] thank you thank you very much Dan

06:01:34

definitely anchoring the dial space so this was actually the end of our sessions here but it's actually the right introduction for our next

06:01:46

activities that are happening in the Fishbowl which will be guess what the future of now so if you have any questions or whatsoever that were not discussed here there will

06:01:58

be the amazing place for it thank you very much guys have a wonderful evening foreign