Video: Supercharging How You Build Apps With Little to No Code (DocDrop)

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welcome everyone uh this is a digital ocean tech talk called supercharging how to build your apps with little to no code we're excited to have you here and

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uh we are really thrilled to announce that we now have an integration between glitch and digitalocean and to celebrate that integration launching we have the ceo of glitch and neil dash and the

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chief product officer of digital uh gabe monroy so my name is kim schlesinger i'm a developer advocate at digital ocean and i'm going to introduce these two guests so first we have a neil dash

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he is the ceo of glitch which is a friendly developer community where coders have collaborated to create and share millions of web apps anil is recognized as a leading advocate

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for a more humane inclusive and ethical tech industry through his work as an entrepreneur activist and writer go ahead and say hey emil good morning good to see you yeah you too

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and then the other guest we have today is gabe monroy who is currently the chief product officer at digitalocean where he oversees the product management organization and owns the company's product vision

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previous to digitalocean gade was vice president of the azure developer experience group at microsoft and founder and chief technology officer of deus which was acquired by microsoft

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in 2017 after joining microsoft gabe started the azure kubernetes service the fastest growing compute service in azure's history gabe was an early contributor to docker

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and kubernetes and a founding member of the cloud native computing foundation the cncf gabe has a lot of experience in open source software and cloud native tech technology so

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say hey gabe hey kim thanks so much i'm super excited to be here great well if you are watching live we'd love for you to say hello uh tell us where you're watching from and maybe why

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you dropped by and you wanted to see this particular tech talk so like i mentioned at the top we have a new integration where you can create or remix an app on glitch and

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then quickly deploy it to digitalocean um and you get a lot of power by deploying to digitalocean where you can uh scale the application and really do some some powerful things so i think the first thing we're going to do is i'm

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going to show you a demo of how to use uh glitch and digitalocean together so let me share my screen beautiful and this is a pre-recorded video but uh

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here we go so uh we've started here we're at glitches uh page for their uh playlist and we have a playlist called deployed to digitalocean there are four apps here that you can

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experiment with and remix and for this demo we're going to remix the hello digital ocean node app so this is a node.js app this is what the application does you can tell the application what your

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favorite color is and there's a little database and if it's the color is found it will change the color on the hello do text as well as give you the hex value for that particular color if you don't

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know which color you want to search for you can click the use a random color button so i'm going to remix this app and i actually i already did all the work of remixing the app so i want to show you in the glitch

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development environment what i did so i took that app and i changed it to the best test mascot app so we've got sammy the shark which is digital ocean's mascot

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we've got the glitch fish which is a mascot we love and then there's some other mascots that i'm particularly fond of octocat from github then you can click the choose a random mascot button and it'll go through

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randomly selecting those different mascots so this is on the glitch platform it's been deployed but i want to add this uh to digitalocean so i go to my digitalocean account i need to create an

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api token i'm calling this one glitch and i'm selecting an expiration date i'm going to grab the token and put it on my clipboard and then go back to the glitch text editor i go to the dot env

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file and i'm going to add an environment variable i'm going to paste the value in and then in order to connect glitch with my digitalocean account i have to have this environment variable named digitalocean access token

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so you see when i put that in up in the top left corner there's a button that says add to app platform so i'm setting up the integration between glitch and the digitalocean app platform [Music]

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and then i go back to my digitalocean account i go to the app platform view and you can see that famous familiar clock that was the name that glitch gave my remix application it's now on digitalocean

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i've deployed it with app platform and in this new tab i've got my best tech mascot application live and running on the internet through digitalocean so just so you can see it uh we've got

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beastie the bsd mascot that's sammy again and then i can click that random button we've got tux the linux penguin so now i'm going to show you how to scale this application you go to the

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settings tab and you find the node component and what i'm going to do is i want to increase the number of containers that are running so if i get a lot of traffic on this application i can handle that so i need to pick the size of the

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containers that i'm going to use uh and it tells us how many dollars per month that's going to be so i'm grabbing this pro size and then i'm scaling up the number of containers to five

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i get a view that asks is this what you want to do i click update the plan and so those containers are scaling up and i go back to my app the url remains the same and now i have like this really

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robust application that can accept a lot of user traffic and so that is the very fast way to uh use glitch and digitalocean to remix an app to

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deploy it and then scale it up so let me stop sharing my screen i want to say hey to some folks in the audience thanks for saying hi we've got harold from italy we've got mikhail from turkey

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sanji from london miles from austin texas mark vincent from the philippines uh mr tubber44 great to have you samuel

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that daniel from los angeles and they say big fan of glitch always been curious about digitalocean and the do blog has been an invaluable resource got rowheat uh saying i think digitalocean is the best for uh

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wordpress hosting thank you rohit and then michael from denmark great all right so let's uh start with the questions for anil and gabe um

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so the first question is there are so many people who are new to the tech industry i think 40 million people is the estimate and they are currently learning how to build and deploy applications

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how does something like the glitch and digital ocean integration support these kind of technologists and what does the future of application development look like yeah and you know please start

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i think you know glitch is doing a lot in this area i'd love to hear your thoughts thanks so much it's a big question you know i think first i want to sort of say it's really exciting to see all this come together kim thanks for walking everybody through it i think it is just incredible uh what

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both teams have done collaborating together and there's this i think it's no coincidence we got a whale and some fish logos together right everybody's in this big sea together and um you know i think it actually speaks

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to the ethos about all these new people they're going to come into tech and they're going to be coding and they're going to be creating which is that um one there is room for everybody there definitely a sort of space and it is going to take everybody working

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together to do it i mean i think it is seen maybe somewhat as an old-fashioned idea that all the companies that care about developers and that build platforms developers will use should work together and i think that's one of those things

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that's essential to bringing in everybody but then there's some fundamentals right which is that first of all can we make the tools accessible can they be as easy as you know something that you can walk

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through in two or three minutes and say now you have something live on the internet i think nothing really substitutes for that immediacy of interaction of have an idea and maybe i can make something i think that ability to have

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trial and error and and break stuff a little bit and then fix it i think is is really powerful and at the same time you know that principle and the sky's the limit if you make something and it takes off you don't have to be the world's expert

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you don't have to be the person that's inventing you know every part of the infrastructure in the stack you can just have a good idea and there is still an internet that can take off in that way so i think those are really fundamental and then the last piece that

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is really key is being part of a community i mean i think you have to have peers i think one of the things that i've been coding a long time i wish i'd known at the beginning of coding is we're all learning all the time we are

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all beginners in some part of this guarantee you if you're building anything more than hello world you're going to be wondering uh man there's something i got to look up there's there's something i have to you know have to go search for and

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um in that sense that you're not alone and that you know the platforms will support you but also the people around you are going through that same path of learning i think the more we can do to remind everybody that we're all at the beginning of some part of our

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coding journey we're all at the beginning of making stuff we all have ideas that are worth putting out in the world i think that's all you know the underlying principles and and everything we can do to bolster that is is you know the next step

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gabe you probably have a deeper you know framing of that yeah i know i i agree with everything that you said and you know again yeah it's 40 million new developers estimated to enter the market by the year 2030.

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we're just like grapple with that number that's a lot of people right and and those people i'd argue aren't very well served by some of the tools and and things that they're asked to learn today and so we as an industry

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really need to up level the simplicity gain and just make sure that we're creating stuff that's approachable where we have the community dynamic you know that you're referencing a neil where we can make people feel welcome make people feel supported on their

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learning journey and ultimately allow them to unleash their ideas and innovation into the world because you know look you know i'm not going to be you know you know you and me and you know we we've you know we're a little bit further along in our career right

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now we still have some stuff to contribute but i'm really looking forward to the ideas and the innovation that the next generation has and wants to share with the world and i think we owe it to that group to make it easier

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than it has been before democratize the technology if you want to call it that um and make it simpler but um and you know i say this uh you know being a huge glitch fan uh i have to say like yo just from the minute i saw

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glitch you know i really think the the metaphor of of you know remixing and kind of like the music uh you know element where i think you had a lot of that creative energy through that industry remixing playlists um and it's

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funny i think you and i know talked about how people initially were like oh i don't really understand how those things connect but as you start to wade in deeper it is actually a really natural metaphor and and i think a lot of the success i've seen in terms of the

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glitch community i can i can personally tie back my experience there to how easy and seamless that that process has been um but i think one of the challenges with any new novel developer experience is

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you can focus on making it really easy to get started and to learn but when you actually hit you know real production needs in real scale does that experience that you know had all the bells and whistles and and was super

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seamless to get started can that actually take you to the next level right and that's what i look at this partnership as like you know by gluing together what glitch is doing kind of on the front end of the experience with the

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back end of that platform and the ability to scale this uh you know to meet the needs of real large scale production applications data services everything that you might require to kind of back that application it's really combining the best of both worlds

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where you've got the great developer experience you've got the ability to scale this in a you know sort of production-grade way um and it's a great example to me of you know two companies same team

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right like we're all in we're all focused on you know trying to do the best we can for this 40 million new developers entering the market and super proud of what the team's uh delivered here and really happy to showcase that yeah i i mean i would say first of all

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emphasize you know this is just the beginning i mean i think we have so many more things to you know like any developer right you see they're like oh you know what else i want to do and i have these other ideas and you know all things sort of but i think the teams have done an incredible job of um

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of a great starting point you know i think something really really really impressive and yeah i mean i think you highlight that point there being that robustness you know to the digital ocean platform that is you know unparalleled and it was one of the key innovations

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right from the start that i think people have relied on and is it's powerful i mean i think that idea of like i said you don't have to learn how to make all that happen yourself you can rely on these platforms to sort of

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deliver it but i think there's also part two that is not as obvious if you are newer to the industry which is the idea that these pieces should work together it should be possible to move your code around to move your apps around to

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connect things together to get the capabilities you want to not be locked in to not be sort of tied into one platform i think you know ease of use is really great and at the

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same time you know being honest i've seen platforms where they are super easy to get something built and you can't edit the code or you can't take it with you or you can't uh you know export it to github or you

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can't you know whatever whatever it is you want to do with it um is a little bit tied down and that you know that it seems i don't know like i said maybe old-fashioned or maybe a little bit

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idealistic but it's really important and i think it's not as obvious when you're starting out you sort of say oh well let me take the convenience let me take the shortcut and we have to make sure that the thing that makes it easy is not the thing that ties your hands

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down the road and makes you feel like you're stuck or cuts you off in the rest of the ecosystem or the millions of other developers that have made cool stuff even just being able to reuse their code you know i think is something really powerful so yeah i i think there

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is a um you know there's a little bit of a opinionated point of view underlying how both companies have done this together which is that you should be part of a larger ecosystem you should be connected to that world and i remember from the

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earliest days that i you know i was lucky to get to be a fan of you know digital ocean right from the start and the first demos i saw was people writing tutorials and you know here and i live in new york city people hosting meetups and saying like do you just want

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to learn how to use this tech or learn this new framework or language um and it was uh not just about hey use our product right now right it was about there's something bigger about the way that we learn the

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way we create the way we code the way we connect and the way that you have control over what you make that's kind of always been true and i i think that's been worth kind of worth fighting for you know so that's as exciting to me as

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all the other parts of this yeah i know i totally agree and i think there's the difference between kind of bounded product experiences where it's like look this is the product this is how we intend you to use it and you know these are the guard rails and and will

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make you successful on these guard rails versus a platform that takes a courageous stance on we're not going to bound your experience because frankly we don't know what you're going to want to do with this we don't know where the

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innovation drive is going to take you next and creating the flexibility of allowing you to move code to different platforms not be locked in really have to earn the right you know on a given hosting provider to

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earn those workloads that kind of thing you know developers and builders they understand when they're being kind of hurted down a particular product experience versus when they're being given sort of this

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creative free space to run and i really think that you know glitch and i'd argue the digital ocean partnership has has really set that you've struck that balance of you're finding a really novel unique interesting uh user experience

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but also isn't constrained so much that like you can't kind of take it the direction that you need to uh because the last thing developers want is to be told what they can and can't do uh and uh so i'm i'm

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quite happy with how that's turned out yeah i think about a lot of like a lot of the easier tools you know talk about being no code and which is great i mean i love those tools i use them um but a lot of times what we talk about inside

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glitch is being yes code you know which is that there's a joy and writing code and seeing it work and when that moment you get something that just you know the page lights up or the change shows up on your you know your app or whatever it is i think you

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know i never tire that you know i've been making websites for as long as there's been a web and you know i really still get excited when you refresh your page and browser don't even have to

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and you know it's updated i think that's just such an exciting feeling and so i think there's some sort of there's nothing like getting your code working or making that change and having it land and i i i think that

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the hard part of coding is not the code it's almost everything around it it's if the configuration is too hard if the setup is too hard if you have to you know if step zero is like learn all of devops before you can try out this new

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framework like that's hard right and i like again i get intimidated by that still and and so um yeah i just i just love that and i love sharing that joy of it and i think also um letting people know you know you don't

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have to be intimidated and and that we are all going to find a part that we don't know yet and you know if you can connect into these experiences you can also find those other people that are going to say hey i figured that out i know what that answer is i made something cool maybe that'll

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inspire you to make that cool thing in your mind too i'm gonna hop in here and say uh welcome if you're just joining us uh we've got a neil dash from glitch and gabe monroy

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from digitalocean and we're talking about our new glitch and digital ocean integration which we're really excited about um and so anil and gabe have been talking if you have questions for either of these

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two folks uh please ask in the chat i can interrupt and ask them but i have a question for both of you so um anil you alluded to both digitalocean and glitch having like very opinionated

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um ideas about uh either code or deployments can you tell us about why glitch was designed as it as it is why can you see all the code and then and remix it so easily sure yeah that's a

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great question i i think um you know a lot of it is actually experience so we share co-founders with um stack overflow and trello a lot of the original team was sort of born out of that same ethos i assume

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everyone was pretty familiar with stack overflow and you know one of the lessons having gotten the chance to work with that team right from the beginning and see that community thrive was there is a generosity of spirit amongst

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coders there is a real sincere and earnest desire to share knowledge and sort of share answers and also everybody relies on that there is nobody working alone there is nobody

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who's got it all memorized there's nobody who never has to google you know the exactly what syntax they were supposed to use or whatever it is right and and so i think that sense of there being something powerful that we can do

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together um was really key at the same time i'd also been one of those people that sort of felt like stack overflow was a little intimidating uh you know i was like i don't know that answer and i'm afraid that if i ask this question i'm

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gonna look a little you know maybe silly or vulnerable you know that's a that's a that's a risky feeling sometimes and so i think we want to balance that with like how do you how do you create a feeling where everybody is

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um like i said kind of a beginner or at least a beginner's mindset um and even the people have the experience are not being distracted by the part that doesn't have to do with what they're making so those are sort of the north stars i think the one of the

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ways i think about expressing that is um your your bug is your bug if you start from something that works by remixing an app that already runs and then all of a sudden it stops running you know it's because it's something you did it wasn't like i accidentally broke my dev

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environment or you know the the some dependency updated in the background and i didn't know it and now i'm tearing my hair out you know uh and i think that was a real sort of um the mindset of creating it the other part

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was honestly so much of the coding world was these like boring green text on a black screen like it was just like kind of preaching to the choir like everybody who was already

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in the club could be in and nobody else was welcome you know it really felt like the door was closed it's like there are always going to be plenty of tools you know there are trillion dollar companies making tools that are giving me like this is for all the people who are already coders and experts or whatever

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and that's fine it's great i use all that stuff you know it's wonderful in the existence but what about something that's got a little bit of heart a little bit of soul a little bit of energy to it that feels frankly more like the creative environments we're in you know when

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you're in you know you see a really funny tic toc creator you see somebody that's like killing it on youtube or instagram or even like you know a really nice subreddit where people are being positive and helping each other and being wholesome or you know great

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discord i think all those communities have creators that are um really regularly inspiring other people like you see people you know in the comments of a youtube video about a cooking video they'd be like i made it too and i was

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you know it was a perfect first try but i made something i think we wanted to go for that feel and that was a lot of the the sort of inspiration and and the way you do that just like sharing your recipe when you're cooking is you share your code when you're coding

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and normalizing that and not um you know obviously github is great for that or you know all the other tools that are in that space are great for that um but also a running app as a starting point not just the code so it's almost like

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getting to taste the food not just see a recipe and that sort of changes how you think about oh this is what i would make that's what i you know this is what i would cook right and so i i think that's just a really really important thing and then the last part of it that kind of

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inspired this approach was um then i saw folks talking the comments about wordle which i am a huge fan of and i love seeing it take off for a lot of reasons i think we can go in a whole digestion there but one of the things to say is like how many of the apps that

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you use in a day how many of the websites you use in a day were made by somebody you know a co-worker or somebody in your community one of your neighbors how many of those things were made out of like excitement or love or passion for

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something you know like wordle was made for somebody that wanted to make their partner happy um and that's an old-fashioned way of making the web again but that is something that is as current and as big a phenomenon as we've seen in tech this

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year again trillion dollar companies are not having as much love you know as one person making one website using completely standard web technologies that you can view source on and learn

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from and cheat on finding the words for the solid solution from you know like i think that's all that's all pretty profound so so that's that's i think that underpinning is that there is still a web like that to be created and um and

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and that much creative energy and all we have to do is is make it visible to people and they will take off running with it so i appreciate that so much so i feel like it's actually pretty radical that the belief

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at glitch is that developers are friendly and collaborative and want to work with one another and empower one another and like that shows through all of the decisions that you all make a glitch so

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that's outstanding yeah like the community comes through the product which is really interesting um so gabe um similarly digitalocean has a very opinionated view on um like

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servers and deployments and one of our core values is simplicity simplicity simplicity and all that we do so can you talk about like that decision as a company and how that uh how that's

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playing out right now yeah look i think it starts from this concept that you know there's a a lot of folks that are entering the market that need to be empowered um and you know look

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there's a lot of folks in the cloud space that are really focused on you know proprietary novel innovation right like building the next cool serverless thing or building the next

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school and we do that uh for sure but what's more impactful to me is taking stuff that's already popular where there's already sort of a critical mass and making it super easy so that we can

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go reach a broader audience with it get their ideas into the mix right uh and so a lot of our calories that we put towards innovation are actually in focus they're focused on how like what are the

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things that are resonating with the developer community how can we actually take that and and make the experiences better and you can see that in some of what we're doing in terms of you know the the learning modules that we put out and

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just sort of teaching people about technology you know it's not digitalocean specific it's just like we're here to educate and provide value to the broader developer community on that front and yeah we would love for

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you to try that and and build a business ultimately on that with digitalocean uh but we have to earn the right to do that and the way we do that is by making the stuff super simple it has to be simpler than any other platform and so you know

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one of the the ways this also plays out is rather than just kind of releasing lots and lots of different products that kind of uh do slightly the same thing uh you know i don't know if you're familiar

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with a again named corey quinn uh you know hilarious a guy but you know he put out a blog post on his uh last week in aws called 17 ways to run a container on on aws uh and and no knock to aws and if

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you talk i know i've got a lot of friends there and you know they got reasons for why they built 17 you know different pivots on how to run a container but like i would argue that for those 40 million developers they're not looking

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to wade through the 17 ways they've got a job to be done that's like i've got this node app that i need to distribute across the world and back with you know some basic data store like can you just tell me how it works right and and so uh

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that's a there's a lot of effort going on in terms of identifying what are those jobs to be done that the developer the developer community has how can we take popular technologies and make them as simple as possible for folks to

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integrate on the platform provide that scale uh you'll provide that uh your production uh your grade uh you know uh day two and day end experience um and i think that's really really important and it really focuses us on what we term

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internally do simple right so everything we do we have to run through this lens of is it do simple is it meeting the bar and there's lots of stuff that we cut off that we're like no no this is not this is not hitting that bar back to the

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drawing board on it um and and so you know i think what what you can expect to see from us you know over over the past and as well as going forward is more focused on how can we take stuff that's popular make it super super seamless

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connect that to the broader developer community and really empower those 40 million folks that we've been talking about i love that approach so much because it also you know i think there's sort of a myth that you can either be proprietary and easy

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or open and difficult i mean i think that's sort of like the way things are drawn up and it's and it's not true it's not true i think what you all have done what we aspire to do and you know obviously we're small so we're still getting started out but i

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think you know there's something about um that there are popular technologies and and as i said the code's not the hard part of them it's everything around it it's the complexity it is learning you

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know 57 different kinds of like container deployment for one platform and you're like i don't know all of some giant companies internal jargon i don't know you know they're all there they're you know i squint and all their sort of like

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there's dozens of offerings all look kind of the same and i'm like i don't know which one to pick like i'm sure if that were my entire job to know that maybe i would be able to discern corey is great i was on corey's podcast uh i guess a couple months ago now about

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two months ago and you know and he did sort of frame that up is that there is this um there almost the sense that rather than putting the developers first or what users need first and creators need first

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it's like kind of putting their org chart first or or what you know what their organization's doing i get that like again i have you know nothing but respect for what all the various platforms have done but i love what you know i think do has been able to keep that

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north star over the years of you know maybe called you know digital ocean simple but i think i think that sense of like what does a developer want and the thing i want you know my example is like i'm using node these days i just want to run a node app i don't want to like one

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i don't want to learn some proprietary thing proprietary thing but also it's not that's not the part where i'm doing the innovation i'm not trying to find what is some new thing i've never discovered like i just want to use the tools i have the idea is what's new

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not you know not that i have to reinvent my entire stack every time yeah and and then you know to go back to your point about because i think the tick tock creator example is a really great one right like the on tick tock you got this

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this sharing of ideas you know novel you know things that folks are doing and the time for someone to sort of reproduce that or just kind of do their own pivot on that is really small and really compressed and if you look today in the

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software development space it's like all right someone built an app that's pretty cool now let me go set up my ide let me go download all these packages what's the stack they're using you know oh wait i i don't know postgres i'm gonna have to swap this with my sequel you know

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it's just like before you get to the value creation part you've wasted two weeks right trying to and it crushes your soul too right like as soon as you like run into that like my dependency is not working and all i want to do is get to cloning something that already exists

00:30:45

you know i think it's so frustrating i i i go back to the world example we've had this explosion of remixes of wordle on glitch and it is you know to do the first version of it uh we have a great developer in our community who

00:30:58

actually used to be on our team at glitch poche and he made this you know sort of clone of world and then people took in a remix they made here's one in french and here's one in spanish and i was like okay that's cool and then people said well here's one that's all

00:31:10

four letter words and curse words and i was like of course inevitable it's the internet it's funny you know it's entertaining um and then there was all these other things you know all the sort of variations and what people consistently said was wow i didn't have

00:31:21

to get the basics done i didn't have to build the core mechanics out but i could just do the part that was unique to me i wanted to change the design or change the vocabulary or build in a different kind of visualization and all these other things and you see people riffing

00:31:33

on each other's work they said well that was cool let me do one and now you know we've got people doing really esoteric things like oh thank you this is great um you know that are like uh what are the the symbols for different birds and what are the phonemes that people use to phonetically

00:31:46

spell things out instead of letters and just stuff that i had not even conceived of and then cultural connections so they're saying you know i'm a bird watcher or i want to celebrate queer culture or whatever it is they're all sort of emphasized there and i think

00:31:59

um that was that sense of i think it is exactly like tik tok like you make one sound it catches on and that's cool but everybody's sort of remixing that and saying let me riff on this me and let me respond to it and i love bringing that energy to coding culture and then

00:32:12

tellingly some of these like the one that's about the the i think it's called swerito the sort of curse words one is getting some scale and it's getting a pretty regular audience and that's where i think um how do you make it almost push button

00:32:26

easy for them to be able to scale or if they want to add more database-based features that's exactly what you know teaming up with digitalocean's about for us is that somebody like that doesn't have to be afraid about you know what's the next

00:32:39

step if if they happen to go global i mean i think of last year uh when that um uh tanker ship was stuck in the suez canal we had a glitch app that let you put place sort of an image of that um

00:32:52

that tanker app anywhere on the map of the world on the globe and people were trying out for themselves it got millions and millions of visitors and i know you know the person that made it was feeling a little bit under the gun you

00:33:04

know like oh wow this is way way bigger than i you know expected for considering i made this happen an hour and and i love the idea of people not feeling constrained and not feeling pressure

00:33:15

about success like when your app goes viral and becomes popular it should be a thing to celebrate and to feel excited about not a thing to feel nervous about and so i think that's something that i love collaborating together and also i i do i hope people can sort of see

00:33:29

that um this is what coding can be like it can be something where there's a playlist of cool apps for you to take inspiration from and and that's the thing that i felt was missing um when i was learning to build with a lot of this tech i couldn't go and look

00:33:42

at you know maybe i could sort of find something once github came along i could sort of find something but it's different from seeing it and seeing it running and with one click yeah and i think that point on seeing it running is really critical because in the olden

00:33:55

days right you you talk about the green screen and and you know kind of the the you know legacy you know programmers of the past generation i i i think there was a lot of interest in sharing

00:34:07

at the library level so there's a lot of you know uh code packages on github where it's like here's a library i'm gonna import this library i'm gonna use some functions in my app right you know from that library maybe i'll swap it for a different library but there wasn't

00:34:20

this concept of sharing a working application that came working out of the box where the time to value was 30 seconds a minute you know before you actually saw a thing working you could start hacking and iterating on that

00:34:32

thing and i think that to me is one of the real key innovations of this is is you're not just like collaborating on a piece part you're collaborating on something that kind of works end to end and that allows you the speed of innovation i mean you can

00:34:45

start you know making it your own at a pace that you couldn't otherwise um and you know i'm just really excited to see that kind of thing taking off because i think that kind of step function improvement in terms of how fast you can get moving

00:34:58

is going to be key to unlocking the next wave of innovation for that's really it you're hired you told the story better than i can that's great but i mean that's it and i think that energy is exciting and i think the sense that also there's no limits to how big

00:35:10

you can go with that app like that just because it was easy to build and inspired by somebody else it doesn't mean that you're also stuck in this little box of you know not being able to scale or build something really robust i think that's sort of that's the last

00:35:22

piece to a really great experience where first you don't have to worry about creating and then you don't have to worry about scaling i mean i think that's such a liberation for people that have a cool idea that they just want to get out in the world

00:35:35

yeah that's such a good good observation game that on github you can see the code you can you know clone it on your machine but the skill set you have to have to like actually get the app up and running on

00:35:46

your machine is it's a high barrier uh to entries so and sometimes yeah there might be a readme there that kind of walks you through it but what are the chances of that thing working you know it's you know you maybe when they wrote the read me it was

00:35:59

working but over time you know it probably didn't i think when you look at the playlist and glitch you know there's a there's high confidence that this thing's gonna work out of the box you're gonna in 30 seconds get that tab on the on the right that shows you your app

00:36:11

running and you can start to iterate off of that it's just it's a it's a different class of experience and i think it's going to move the ball forward um well i'm going to reintroduce you all um so if you've just joined us welcome

00:36:24

uh we've got a neil dash from glitch and gabe monroy from digital ocean we're talking about um i mean we're sort of talking about a new integration between digital ocean and glitch but sort of digging into

00:36:36

um why is this a good partnership sort of what what was glitch built upon digitalocean um we've got a comment from douglas and they say great to hear about the love of ideas and learning i just

00:36:48

completed edu scrum training and it would be great to pair glitch and digital ocean tools with student product projects so very cool uh hello logan who's a digital ocean uh designer um so

00:37:01

actually if it's okay with you two i would love to just show you one of these wordle apps how you experiment with it how you remix it and like how you get started if um if you're new to glitch or new to coding at all so uh i don't know

00:37:14

neil do you have a favorite one i'm a big fan of course yes go for it i hate to pick favorites but that's a great one okay so this is like wordle but every word is horse

00:37:26

porcelain okay so that was the wordle uh playlist i clicked on that you can experiment with the actual app before you decide to remix it so

00:37:38

it looks like maybe i'm just clicking some letters here i know this is not right i don't like your odds and here but uh what i want to do is i actually want

00:37:51

to remix this in some way so i click the remix your own button i'm logged in with github and i'm getting now my own fork of the code which is really cool i like this uh

00:38:05

this ms paint yes little doodle and then so i actually i used to be a web app developer and i haven't been that for a few years and so when i remix the node

00:38:18

app i actually got to relearn some javascript stuff and some handlebars stuff so that was really nice but um you can just get in here and start experimenting i always love just changing the color of things because

00:38:30

it's a really easy way to change some code and see see the change happen and then i get that dopamine hit so i don't know do we have a color we can find here

00:38:42

uh i know there was a setting for it uh we could change the color the keys there okay the keys i like that yeah all right so color so

00:38:55

i don't know can you guys give me a hex value i think you could actually just use a keyword there so you could probably blue or something like that okay we'll do blue there we go blue buttons look at this oh

00:39:06

there we go look how fast that is wow it's amazing yeah and one thing i like is the preview um so you do get this this developer experience of you have

00:39:20

your app that's sort of in your development environment and if you've deployed a digital ocean uh then you can also change to the production view um which is really outstanding so um yeah

00:39:32

if you are watching and you are maybe not a don't consider yourself a developer i think which is a great way to start so yeah there we go all right i'll stop sharing my screen um

00:39:46

so if you have questions for neil or gabe feel free to ask them in the chat um all right well uh do you two have have anything you want to say i have more questions for you if you'd like um or would you

00:39:59

like to chat with one another i mean i i have i have a ton of questions for gabe honestly because i think um there's so much to learn from that approach you said about you know keeping things simple and keeping things

00:40:12

accessible and i'm curious about like you know what do you think of the next steps like for me as a as a as a fan like app platform is incredibly exciting it feels like it has that immediacy and and that that whole thing that we're talking

00:40:24

about you know this sort of uh accessibility in the broad sense um you know i'm curious for you of like if you look forward what are the things you're looking at that are exciting or that you know are coming next yeah and yeah i'm glad you're pointing

00:40:37

out app platform i think app platform is a really unique product in the digitalocean product portfolio because throughout platform and and you know if you're interested in the technical details there's something called the app

00:40:49

spec that is kind of the api that underpins that platform it really provides a uh entry point into the rest of the digital ocean cloud experience so you can use that platform to connect to

00:41:01

databases you can use it to you know uh uh you know your provision containers you can use it to provision static sites you can use the division workers and jobs all this other stuff that you would need as a developer to build real

00:41:13

production great apps um but we've enabled you know been able to kind of apply a really great code of simplicity across you know a lot of you know underpinning services now you could also go to the underpinning services and we

00:41:26

built great deo simple experiences there um but i think you're using that platform as a leverage point for simplicity is something that i think is is really exciting uh and really happy to see that come together at the

00:41:38

at the pace that it is uh in terms of other areas that are that are exciting for me you know i really think about um you know just taking what's popular in terms of the open source uh uh

00:41:49

you know technology base i mean the cncf is tracking something like 110 different projects that are you know you know and asking developers to kind of wade through a lot of that is is really

00:42:01

difficult and so one of the things we're focused on is hey like what do we think is really going to be applicable to the next generation developers how can we take some of that technology that's coming out of that of those communities

00:42:14

repackage reformulate that provide do simple experiences on top of that um and and you know to be clear that's also going to require that we engage in the upstream open source community so that we can help shape the technology because you know

00:42:28

these days a lot of these projects uh you know including kind of like the plumbing projects that are under under the hood there's communities there too right so i think with with glitch we're talking a lot ndo we're talking a lot about end user communities there's also

00:42:41

communities at you know in terms of the building blocks and so making sure we're focused on community up and down you know that's kind of software supply chain you know that's used to deliver uh product experiences is something that's

00:42:53

uh really important and through that i think we're gonna enumerate what are the real great opportunities that we have that are matched to where the developers you know are interested in terms of technology and new ways of building things

00:43:06

and that'll give us a head start in terms of where we can provide simplicity going forward that's interesting i i think it is sort of like a cliche that like software is made of people but it really is true i mean i think what you're talking about is that like you

00:43:18

know we talk about the stack and it's like every single one of those layers of the stack is a community of people that sort of got together and decided to be generous with one another and share something out in the world and

00:43:29

i think that's like a great north star about thinking about how to approach that you know going forward absolutely and and you know i guess a a question to you as well like in terms of like where you

00:43:42

want to see glitch on the community side going forward i'm curious like you know what what's on your mind you know um i think there's a couple parts i you know the the first thing i'd sort of say is the

00:43:53

uh the ways of participating in the community glitch we want to sort of broaden out you know so obviously people want to make apps and they want to share it with their co-workers we've built you know whole team function for people who you know want to work with their co-workers or something like that you

00:44:05

can invite people in and we think of it sort of almost like sharing a google doc you just invite people in you can edit together i think that's a really satisfying and gratifying experience um you can even sort of set permissions if you don't want that out in the whole

00:44:18

world yet or your boss says don't put that in front of everybody in the world yet um and so that's like a nice thing i think that's something we want to make you know broader and more robust and and more collaborative

00:44:30

um you know there's also room for innovation on on like things that aren't traditionally thought of as coding like one of the things i think of is the the playlist example curating apps um like i think of some of the other platforms i love developer

00:44:43

platforms like uh you know stripe and square and things like that um their folks uh are putting together playlists of starter apps that use their apis and that's something where either they

00:44:56

create it themselves or the community creates it like slack is doing a lot of that um and that's really cool to me is like a way to participate is maybe you make an app and that's great but maybe you curate together a place for others

00:45:08

to start and create on your platform or around your tools or using a framework that you love or you know whatever whatever that category is um i see this a lot with like maps like people love to make starters that people can use to make their own maps

00:45:20

and you know you have a little bit of code kind of enough to be dangerous but you you're fast forward in that in that way um those are incredible ways that i think the community can really um contribute and collaborate together

00:45:32

and do unexpected things um and then you know who knows what the future holds i mean i i still i'm so excited about um we had done a um a starter project people can use a couple months ago called glitch in bio

00:45:45

and it's sort of similar to the link you know the bio link things you see people have on their instagram or whatever um but we did it on purpose you know obviously there's lots of great apps out there that people use and those are really popular but we did it on glitch

00:45:57

on purpose because you could see the code and you could edit it and and frankly i was a little bit offended that people were paying to put links on their own website like it just seems like it's

00:46:09

against the web you know like it offended me you know it was like no you don't you don't have to pay to put a youtube video on your site like that's horrendous and so you know we made this thing that like you know you can put the nice simple thing there's a

00:46:21

bunch of links or here's my you know find me on the other services or whatever but the sky's the limit if you want to go nuts changing the css and make the styles whatever you want you can do that if you want to link some service that nobody's thought of or hasn't used yet

00:46:33

you can do that and you know or god forbid put a domain name on it so it's actually a site that you own instead of you know controlled by the company those are all things that i just was so heartened by and and no surprise within

00:46:46

like 24 hours of it going out they were all different styles all different ideas somebody recently took the idea and ran with it and made an entire web vr version of the same kind of thing where you can walk physically walk through in 3d space you know uh somebody's listed

00:46:59

links that stuff is where um frankly it doesn't involve us changing a lot in the uh the way the dynamics of the community glitch work we did do some uh you know iteration based on what those users told us they wanted for example we added

00:47:12

support for 3d objects in the glitch editor for everybody building the vr and xr experiences on the web and ar and all that stuff and so like we we do have that um really nice back and forth with the community about what we're enabling but

00:47:25

i think so much of the energy is going to be about hey you know this thing that already maybe you're familiar with or you think that's too hard for a normal person to build and and you know probably as fast as you could sign up for one of those services you can have a

00:47:37

your own link page for free and like i said you're not being squeezed into ping to put a link on a website which just seems like uh it makes my skin crawl it's itchy i can't stand it and so i love that idea of kind

00:47:49

of reteaching people like in past days people would learn when they were making their tumblr or i'm old enough people made their live journal which was the sort of 20 years ago version of tumblr but people made their own websites you know on on myspace on whatever else and

00:48:03

bringing that back for the community i think is just as important as the people who are going to build a really productive and effective slack bot or stripe integration for payment at work like i think those two things feed on each other

00:48:16

absolutely we have some questions in the chat i'm excited uh so this one's for emil uh why glitch and not codepen uh it's a great question i we love codepen they're a huge inspiration for

00:48:29

glitch those folks are incredible the community is incredible i can't say enough good things about them so i think first of all like yes do you use it like i hope i hope they all find a great way to work with the you know digital ocean as well um you know the truth of it is

00:48:41

the majority of the codepend community is pretty front-end focused um and tends to be static sites they have a lot of capabilities so again i'm not you know diminishing all the great things that they do but it tends to be about sort of showing off a you know a proof of uh a

00:48:54

design or a front-end concept glitch is full stack it's not always obvious to people because it is so instant to get started uh people sort of assume that it is uh uh just a front end or just a you know

00:49:06

like a sandbox for tinkering with uh uh css or something like that um so i think the thing that glitch does uniquely well is what's not obvious when you know for example can you remix that app or you know the horse app

00:49:18

underneath the hood we are standing up an entire node stack for you behind the scenes and an entire container for you to run that in and there's a lot of sort of capability there if you want to expand now in the case of a wordle clone you

00:49:31

probably don't need actually that much more it's sort of the basics of there but things like build scripts and being able to use different frameworks and bring them in and being able to decide whether you want your site to be fully static or dynamic those are some

00:49:43

of the capabilities that differentiate glitch i really early from all of the sort of static you know there's lots of fiddles and sandboxes that we use over the years that i love and we take a lot of inspiration from but i think uh

00:49:55

can't do that sort of full stack part and that's part of why we're able to do something like an integration with digitalocean that is so robust and it's going to be able to do so much more in the future is that these are two you know full stack

00:50:08

infrastructures talking to each other and there's a lot of intelligence we can put into making the experience simple excellent thank you all right we'll start with gabe for this next question

00:50:18

uh any comments insights on ai ml's future impact on both digitalocean and glitch and then can you define ai and ml gabe sure uh and you know i think this is a

00:50:32

really important question and and in some ways you know this is going to be a defining question i think for you know technology evolution in the future um but just first to define you know you know ai i consider really the um

00:50:45

operationalizing artificial intelligence so that you can query a model and you know send it a face and your picture of a face and it can you know do some facial recognition on that face right that's kind of the artificial

00:50:57

intelligence component of this then there's the ml the machine learning component of this which is taking large data sets that maybe have pictures of the faces in them and training that into a model that can then be used for inferencing from from an artificial

00:51:10

intelligence perspective and so they're kind of two sides of the same coin ai i tend to view as the application integration focus in terms of how you use the capability uh ml is how you build the models right uh and data

00:51:23

science resources and stuff like that are big in there um look i think this is really important because you know let's give an example um you know i was at microsoft when microsoft announced the uh github code

00:51:37

um you know copilot integration uh partnership with open ai um and for those of you who are not familiar with it the general idea is you install sort of the copilot thing into your ide you write a comment saying i want to

00:51:49

loop this in this way or whatever and boom the code gets written for you and it is shockingly accurate like in terms of how how effective you know the code that comes from this artificial intelligence actually is um and so i

00:52:00

think when developers look at this they're blown away at what like how much of a step function improvement this ai capability is especially when you get that end-to-end product integration

00:52:12

the challenge is that most developers are nowhere near being able to build that kind of thing right and so really these aiml capabilities are like integrated and aiml are the domain of the tech elite or the domain of

00:52:25

companies who have massive data science resources and so i think this is another area where you think about 40 million people rolling up in the market by 2030 this is one of the things that we have to make super easy for them because the

00:52:38

companies and and the individual developers who are able to uh take aiml and and you know capability and ai enable their applications they're going to stand out in the way that a github

00:52:49

co-pilot stands out today in terms of its ability to innovate and so i think both in terms of developers on their learning journey as well as frankly accelerating time to value for folks who could just want to get started with

00:53:02

sentiment analysis or speech to text or text-to-speech right there's a lot of off-the-shelf yo ai models that people can use that you can imagine being integrated into a glitch ecosystem or into a digital ocean ecosystem

00:53:14

where it would allow us to sort of bring people on that journey ultimately that journey is going to likely end in you know hey i need to customize this model the example i like to give is let's say you're do you're doing uh speech to text

00:53:27

right and you're translating some stuff but like you're in boston where they've got that ah you know accent right and so like your your your model is off the shelf it didn't really account for the

00:53:38

boston accent but if you can retrain that model on the basis of the the historical data that you've had you know with the you know the the boston accent you know in that data you can actually increase the accuracy of your speech-to-text service by sort of

00:53:51

integrating that ml capability so there's this whole spectrum and this whole journey i think we need to take developers in this ecosystem on it's something i'm really excited about because i'm always looking for areas where we can really level up you know

00:54:04

the game you know and kind of those step function improvements and i think this is one where i'm just super excited to drill in and and love to hear neal's thoughts on this too yeah i mean i think that's all dead on and i think one of

00:54:16

the things i sort of emphasize so the um one of the most popular uh ml frameworks is is tensorflow from google and you know we saw that team actually unbeknownst to us we found out when we

00:54:28

sort of saw the work around it uh they they started to use glitch to build examples in javascript because traditionally had been pretty hard to set up tensorflow in your local dev environment it wasn't the kind of thing you were going to do casually on the weekend um and and it was a perfect

00:54:41

example i'm like i'm very curious about it but am i going to like you know neglect my child for a weekend while i sort of learned how to get this running on my mac like no i'm not going to do that and instead they made it as accessible as any you know sort of

00:54:52

javascript library they can reference and then they built reference examples on glitch you know and that was so powerful because it took what you know and gave you and i've talked about this time to hello world like from zero to idea it took time from

00:55:05

hello world to like seconds instead of literally days because i did fight with like trying to get that dev environment set up and it's you know that's again not a criticism of course it's hard to set up like the most advanced ai and machine learning models that you can do

00:55:19

are going to be hard to do on your own but if you can just reference there as a starting point it's a great way to fast forward and accelerate especially when you have reference examples in the case of the google team that were these really honestly heartfelt things they were

00:55:30

helping you like you know auto generate music if you could just sort of play one key on the keyboard and and these really great uh things that would help you draw if you weren't great at drawing like they were really soulful they were thoughtful and i was

00:55:44

like gosh this is the best of what this tech can help us do and i thought really importantly sort of two things came out of that i think the first is there's a really strong and rightful

00:55:55

worry about the impact of ai on culture and on society right these things can be trained because they're trained on society are they going to reproduce the problems that we have in the world and i think one of the things that's really powerful about having a community

00:56:09

like glitch is is people can look at each other's work and learn about what is working what isn't working or if they see a harm or a flaw or a bug you know whether it's a big bug or just a little tiny one they can look at each other's

00:56:22

work and say maybe you know maybe it's something to i can remix and improve and i think that's something that's really key is um we we have to be very cautious about how these tools are deployed because they i

00:56:34

mean everything is the best of intentions you know and i think people are really curious and rightfully so but also they can have you know harms baked into them or just accidentally included and and so by having a community especially a

00:56:47

diverse community inclusive community you increase the odds that somebody's thinking about hey did you anticipate this problem that might be there or something like that i think that's really key you know the other thing that sort of shares a story that has stuck with me uh

00:57:00

for a couple years now since the tensorflow team started you know people at google were working on building those examples and they wanted people to learn how to do it and uh here in new york city we have a nonprofit organization called mouse that builds a

00:57:12

lot of the curriculum for especially high school students to learn to code and for many years they've used glitch to teach people i think one of the earlier comments had talked about you know enabling students and this kind of thing and so high schoolers were using

00:57:25

those tensorflow examples to learn about the cutting edge of ml you know an ai and that was such a you know such an inspiring thing but what was striking to me was for the the kids learning they're like this

00:57:38

is great i'm i'm doing a thing i wouldn't have been able to do it's real code it's not some you know toy sandbox it's like a real thing i can put on my resume if i or you know put on my college applications but then the folks who are at google and

00:57:51

if you're working on ai google you are you know amongst the best coders in the world right this is the most exalted thing you can be in this industry and they were saying that was one of the things that meant the most to them about

00:58:02

getting to do this work was seeing high schoolers young people who a lot of times they're a public school in new york city they're not you know these are these are not kids that always have you know every door open for them and for even the most experienced and

00:58:15

respected and revered coders in the tech industry to look at kids in a public school and say oh this is actually why it turns out i was making this i didn't know it until i saw it yeah i think that is the power

00:58:27

of making things more accessible making things more open building communities where everybody's welcome that's great thank you well we're coming up toward the end uh we've got maybe one or two more

00:58:41

questions and uh we'll go back to my demo um so this question from daniel flanagan uh they asked curious how long ago the idea for a glitch and digital ocean integration started and then how

00:58:54

long it actually took for both teams to integrate i like the pragmatism of that question um i do too you know i i i will say i think we have been talking as companies for

00:59:07

probably years at this point just because um probably not obvious actually for somebody who has a question like that you know like we're both like a lot of the teams are in new york city i was always very inspired by uh you know digital altitude one's first demos at

00:59:19

the new york tech meetup which is like it was our sort of launching pad for a lot of startups here so they were always inspiration so we were always in touch um and i got to know a lot of the folks because i know even before it gave you it started you know we were sort of

00:59:31

talking um and then you know memory is fuzzy during covert but i feel like it was a couple of months ago we really started getting serious about maybe there's something here that we should start to focus on and

00:59:43

then really the last two months was very intense work by both teams to get the the core parts working i mean gabe does that match your recollection yeah yeah and as you said i wasn't here for this so uh other folks on the team would have

00:59:56

a better answer but you know my sense on this is that the the idea of you know a one plus one equals three partnership has been floating around you know for a while now and then at a certain

01:00:09

point it's like you know two companies will just get gutted up like hey look look it's time like we understand what we need to go do let's go do it um and my sense was that the that time period in terms of once we were actually meaningfully engaged on the project

01:00:22

hasn't been that long i don't know what to quote exactly uh yeah some other folks on the team would probably have a better answer on that but um i think you know just you know to me it just points out like when there's motivation on both

01:00:33

sides everyone understands like what the north star is uh what everyone's role to play is an integration like this actually doesn't take that long to go do but um you know some of the discussion in advance you know sometimes that can

01:00:46

take a while just in terms of uh you know because we all got lots of things we could prioritize lots of different areas we could go is this one the top of the list and i think pretty quickly we realized it wasn't yeah you got to get the suits like me out of the way and let

01:00:59

the builders build and then things happen pretty quickly but actually guilty as charged one of the things i will say is the um it does speak to the power of openness because the underpinnings of this first version like i said we're going to keep iterating and

01:01:10

improving this first version the underpinnings of it really are centered on the fact that every glitch project is a git repo under the hood that's automatically committing your code as you go we have a interface we call rewind that lets you sort of slide back the timeline and see back your old

01:01:23

versions of your code but what's happening under the hood is regular standard git nothing proprietary nothing you know uh uh closed and and again to digital oceans credit it's always been one of those sort of great forms of

01:01:36

openness that you all have had that like git is a fundamental way to bring your code in and there isn't anything proprietary locking your code in and so that makes it easier to move fast on everything else because everybody's agreed around

01:01:48

not having lock-in and not using something proprietary and sort of just using the tools that are standard for devs across the industry even though we made the experience nice and smooth they may try to make that all simple and then and integrated you know i i think it's really

01:02:00

very important for people to understand this is what we talk that's why we started by talking about that openness and that philosophy of how your you know your dev experience should connect together because then it does let um all

01:02:12

of us who who get the the privilege to build these tools be able to give developers what they need and connect together and improve it over time and you know keep iterating but i think that's something that um you know definitely check under the hood of

01:02:26

all the tools you're using and make sure that they've got you know that potential for the future i think it's it should be a make or break for any of the tools that developers use indeed great thank you all right so

01:02:39

we're wrapping up anil uh privately uh slacked me a message and said oh let's go back to that porcelain app so i'm going to share my screen

01:02:51

see collaborating on code exactly and so this is the html page and i just found all the instances of the word horse and changed it to ocean

01:03:03

and then if i go to the javascript uh on line 41 uh this is where the word uh gets set that's accurate so right now the word is force so h now let me hide that o

01:03:16

r s e enter all right five greens look at you but let's change it to ocean so now instead of horsel it's

01:03:34

[Music] it's fun to remix apps on bravo well thank you so much anil and gabe um we're gonna call out some places where people can go to uh to find uh the

01:03:53

collaboration oh we have some audience comments matt rushing says it's been a super fun collaboration we're excited to share it with the world matt rushing's on the digital ocean side uh yeah mr tubber 44 says thoughtful

01:04:05

insightful conversation appreciate you so yeah if you are interested in deploying a glitch app to digital ocean go to glitch.com digitalocean

01:04:18

we did have someone asked earlier john saying is there a way to do this for free we have a hundred dollars worth of digital ocean credits for anyone signing up for digitalocean for the first time so check that out

01:04:30

and then if you start experimenting with these this and you need help scaling your apps uh the digitalocean uh sales team is here for you so uh check out this link um yeah and john i hope you give it a

01:04:44

spin it's really fun um all right so last comment the hundred dollar credit can be accessed at this link glitch.com forward slash digitalocean so thanks so much anil and gabe it was great to chat

01:04:56

with you and to hear you talk with one another and uh maybe we'll be able to have a follow-up to this conversation soon absolutely that's so much all right take care everybody