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okay dear colleagues welcome to uh welcome to this last leg of this conference i'm i'm sadie laluda director of the paris institute for adult study and i'm extremely happy
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uh to host uh the last part of this amazing conference or organized by our colleagues jim
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flor and helen jim is is currently a fellow here i'm extremely happy to to to host uh this last uh session and uh
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i'm also a bit sad that it is so timely uh as we as we all know uh the institute is always welcoming very important research and often timely research
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and uh often this timeliness is not so happy as as it is now but after this final conference which uh jim will introduce in a minute you will have the opportunity to refresh
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in the yard and i hope this will at least create a moment of happiness thank you again for being here and uh enjoy and jim uh without further ado
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well i think most most people who are here there may be a few extra colleagues who've arrived i see some of our fellows in the institute and i'll just echo what side he said welcome to this
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beautiful house which was built sometime in early in the reign of louis xiv maybe we can talk about that over over drinks tonight but since we don't have a whole lot of time
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and we've had already a long two days of meetings with lots of very interesting discussion uh we're going to now move to sort of a final round table and it is
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a great pleasure to welcome most of you who are with us earlier uh there were a couple who didn't make it quite to all of the conference but they're all extremely familiar with the topic
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and uh helen you want me to introduce the panel okay i'll do my best here so we have we have four distinguished panelists who is on the end here who is a french
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sociologist i think teaching at seattle school right and has written extensively on on these issues especially the citizenship angle although she said she was going to talk about something slightly different than
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her famous book my great friend and colleague francois whom i have known for over 40 years unbelievably who is a professor at the college de france and has built the institute convergence
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migration which last count has 630 scholars in france so it's got to be one of the largest migration institutes on the planet he has really put the migration studies on the map i would say in france and i'm
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sure many of you know the writings of france the person who deserves extra special uh thanks uh and she gets a an extra glass
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of wine tonight is brenda yo who came all the way from singapore for this but i think she likes to come to paris that's my sense and she brenda and i have known each other also
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for decades and admit in japan and east asia in various meetings so we're glad that brenda made the trip she did say this is the first time she's had a chance to get out and do something in person so it's it's extraordinary that
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we were able to put this whole thing together and have it in person in spite of the pandemic and now a major a major conflict uh in europe and i'm sure we may hear a little bit more about ukraine later on
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and finally we have a i don't know how many children you got but jason who has some family obligations uh he may have to leave a little early but jason gagnon whom i also met somewhere along the line
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several years ago who is working in the center for development at oecd here in paris and he's going to talk to us a little bit about the economics so we'll hear things about economics
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about politics about demography about the sociology in these questions of migration and development ellen do you want to say a couple of words before we get started nope hey lynn's just going to sit there well let me just say also
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before i before i stop i could not do this i couldn't have done this without my two co-conspirators here partners in crime flo guber from the ird also the bison de sioux
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and elentiolae who i've known since she was a student so you know these are two of the best partners i could have had in putting all this thing together and between the three of us i think we
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brought a group of people here together who many of whom did not know each other before this so we've created a sort of a new dynamic i think in in migration studies by bringing this particular group together so hopefully this will be
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the first of of many future collaborations and a lot of spin-offs from this uh i also want to thank my colleagues from the tower center and from iea who are here i don't know where bora bora is back
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there jenny's back there all of the the colleagues and the ones at ia who made this work liset who is about to film everything back there so let's i want to thank all of them and when we finish we'll we'll
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give them a round of applause i do want to recognize two other groups here actually we have a group of students with us i want all of you to take a moment to meet our students these are uh the top
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students at smu who are in our tower scholars program which is a program in public policy and international affairs and they have been very active in in the conference they're all writing
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journals and going to write a report when they get back so not a bad deal to get to come to paris and spend your spring break here hanging out with a group of scholars so we're really really pleased to have them here
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and then finally my colleague and dean professor tom de piro who is sitting back here quietly on the back row you will hear a little bit more from him uh when we get to the to the reception part of this so i will
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stop there turn the panel over i don't know if we have a specific order for this so why don't we just start with myrna francois brenda and then no jason has to leave early so we'll have to
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start in the other direction we'll go jason brenda francois and myrna okay thank you okay thank you uh thank you very much um this is uh the second time i take uh the
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floor um in uh in in the last two days yesterday i i discussed so sorry if i'm competitive with the my introduction but i'm jason gagno i had a unit at the oecd
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development center called migration skills unit um i'm a couple years removed from having uh any pure uh academic uh entourage or or uh or or
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work activities um so i'm this is just a disclaimer that my my view here is really uh from a policy a public policy view and and bringing in weaving in the oecd's
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uh ideas and um uh and and work into uh what we know uh about migration and development and i specifically tried to
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make a reference to inequality uh into that work as much uh as possible and i just wanted to thank also the organizers for for inviting me and also i should mention that i didn't mention
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this yesterday but i'm also a fellow at the ecm which is also one of the co-organizers so so thanks for that um so without further ado um the it's true that we're uh we're
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gathered here in in a time where uh migration is unfortunately being uh discussed uh perhaps negatively and and this has been an ongoing theme and it's uh the narrative on migration has been
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particularly uh not always a good one refugees go home refugees welcome those kinds of discussions have been uh and have been very much prominent in media in social network discussing
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discussions uh but it's also i think very important to say how far we've come along with with actually bringing a positive tone to for that both on the scholastic side in the academic side but also on the policy side
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and you know i just want to mention here that you know that the 2030 agenda has for the first time brought migration international migration uh into the fold into glo into the global agenda um and
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we we took that notch up a little bit when we when we sign the global compact migration and the global compact on refugees uh the fact that there are two is another discussion i think that that's worthy of uh of mention uh but those
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things are are lofty reasons to be optimistic uh as well so um so my point of view here is going to come particularly the oc development center works particularly with non-oecd member countries although we have oecd member
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countries part of our of our group of governance but we particularly look at it from not only the sending country point of view but also the hosting country point of view from a developing country perspective that is uh south south
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migration for some of them that refer to it as that and so from the origin country we may look at you know immigration as a safety valve as remittances as a source of you know financial uh or finance for
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development source uh diaspora as enablers for social development uh brain circulation you know strengthening human capital uh and innovation um and then on the hosting countryside we look at you know whether immigration
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helps reduce skills mismatches whether immigrants expand the domestic market immigrants contribute to financing social protection systems or or lead to increased innovation entrepreneurship so through all these types of angles i've
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reflected about our work and whether uh they contribute or reduce uh inequalities and what what i grouped or what i came up with as a group of three categories one was inequality
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and integration or inclusion a second one was inequality in the access itself to migration and that's where i'm going to put the most focus on today and then inequality and remittances and i'll
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follow up with that with a quick um response or quick insights on what we feel is the policy response that's the most adequate um or at least where we think there's there are gaps and i was asked that question
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yesterday at lunchtime with some of you where we at the oecd see the gaps where the where academia could probably push further and i'll finish on data concerns and i know that was brought up yesterday that we always finish up on data concerns but i find
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that that's particularly in an important uh thing to to dig deep and we spoke about yes diaspora today i'll speak a little bit about how we calculate um immigration
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um on inequality and integration and inclusion i'm gonna go pretty quickly on this because i really want to focus more on the access to migration but i think it's particularly telling what we're seeing
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today in terms of the focus on integration and inclusion a lot of academic papers and a lot of even policy in the oecd and even beyond the
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usc the world bank and the undp and and the united nations in general focus a lot of uh their their policy focus and their policy dialogues on integration in high-income
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countries whereas most of the action right now on migration is happening between developing countries and that that might be decreasing but it's still more than half half that population and it's
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particularly happening in in a specific context it's happening in context of forced displacement and it's happening beyond camps beyond refugee camps and beyond uh
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what unhcr we call refugees it's happening in cities it's happening in secondary cities it's happening in rural areas and there's very little focus policy focus either from the global agenda from the
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regional agenda but even from the national side of things where countries simply don't have inclusion or integration aspects on their radar uh in in in any way uh or
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shape or form and and it's increasing in some some specific corridors and that's because of uh their attractivity that's but it's due to two things it's due to the attractivity of certain
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countries that are growing much faster than their neighbor countries but it's also due to and i'll come back to this in the access to migration it's due to what you what what we all call the uh the migration hump and the access uh to
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migration that's that's becoming more and more uh accessible and more and more reachable for people not only people but specific countries that are starting to transition from
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low-income uh to more middle-income countries and so a few years ago and then this is my transition to uh maybe one last point on that we're working right now on social protection not just in force displacement uh
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context and and that's a very specific uh example of how this this really comes to light uh i mentioned this a while ago 88 or so of force displacement happens
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between developing countries uh the pandemic has made this a a real uh priority uh you know helping people uh not only in the humanitarian and in the short-term
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concerns that they have but also in the long-term concerns they have yet social protection policies for people that aren't necessarily born or citizens or nationals of the country is simply not on the radar and so you have a certain
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population that is remaining in the long term or in the median term simply needing humanitarian access because they don't have the means to be self-reliant and so there's
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there's really a need to to shift that uh that focus a little bit more towards beyond humanitarian thinking and and more towards long-term medium-term um self-reliance community resilience uh
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thinking and it's it simply don't happen so my my transition to to access to migration is where i'm going to focus most of this of this talk and i'm aware i'm taking uh more time than i expected but we asked ourselves a few years ago
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whether this uh the global shift in wealth and and when i say that i know many of you are probably thinking of china but it's it's really due to a lot of different emerging countries the shift in wealth in the world and the
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shifting economic center of gravity in the world was impacting migration and in any way what we found was that you might expect given the wealth was shifting towards
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emerging economies or medium inc middle income countries that migration was also shifting there but what we actually found and if you look at the global stocks of of data is that low and middle income country source
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countries at source were actually increasingly this in in the wake of shifting wealth and in the wake of of of them becoming richer shifting their migration towards higher income countries and
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low and middle-income country to low and middle income country migration was actually decreasing it was actually only one-fifth of all migration so the south-south migration idea is not necessarily about south and south it's
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really an income idea and we should really start shifting the way we speak about that and think about uh not only uh is it a is it a southern and southern country but really is it a
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what are the actual job opportunities in in that country um and so we started thinking about the migration hump and i'm going to try to be quick here most of you know of the this migration home but the it's the
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idea that with uh with economic wealth with economic gdp per capita growth you uh you first increase your immigration up to a certain point at which uh there are enough job opportunities to absorb
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people in the in the country that people uh reduce their their immigration rates and eventually uh migration starts decreasing and that's from a transversal or or yeah transversal data point of view that
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seems to be uh the case and so we started there's a lot of debate and we started asking ourselves what if there was more oda more aid what if there was more fbi what if there's more trade
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would that push that that curve up and if you start thinking about that you start thinking about whether the curve might change itself and so there's an entire public policy response that corresponds to that that might be very interesting for countries
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to start thinking about more and they go beyond migration policies those curves could change for a number of reasons they might change for reasons of country characteristics they might change because of language issues or
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border issues colonial ties they might be driven by institutions they might be driven by social networks they might be driven by migration policies and they certainly are and that's what we mostly focus on when we think of policies but they're also
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driven by a much broader set of policies and those policies are much more prominent in society and yet we don't really ever focus on what their impact is on on the access to migration those have to do with agriculture policies
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subsidies labor market policies education policies social protection policies um and so uh and so we looked at that for a number of countries and we found i'm not going to go into the details here but we found
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that a number of different public policies gave people access more access to migration one minute uh okay well i'll wrap up with i'll wrap up with with just a point on on inequality and remittances but
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we one one point that we that that was important in that debate was that there's a big role out of social protection i mentioned this earlier with force displacement social protection has an impact on lifting financial
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constraints for migration and so the the the the second that you start rolling out big social protection programs and you're creating some sort of access no access into the country
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while you're actually also creating access and no access to migration in certain under certain circumstances and so we we did a big literature review that's not out yet but we're hoping to get it out and it's very interesting in terms of the the public policy response
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very quick word on on remittances i'll skip most of what i was going to say but i just wanted to say two things one is the pandemic made it very clear is making it increasingly clear that
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there's an inequality within the migrant community between those that actually access remittance providers and remittance receivers um and uh and and the fact
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that the pandemic has pushed um the uh the modes of of remitting especially when we were confined and you couldn't even get out of your house the modes are transferring to online transfers well the anybody who didn't have access to a
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computer wasn't uh necessarily computer literate simply didn't have access to those types of remittances and so you're you're creating a bigger wedge between those that have and those that have not um the
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other point was we and then i'll finish on this so i won't talk about the policy response unfortunately or the data sorry um last point on it just on on ukraine it has to do with ukraine but it has to
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do with a more global picture there's a big shifting uh of the type of migrant that is in need or in demand and that's being that's being driven by a lot of
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countries plans and strategies to move towards uh more capital intensive economies you see it in the gulf countries and that's a very interesting case because it's the countries that are the most dependent on
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migrant labor and if they start shifting uh their um the type of migrant that comes and works into their countries well they may be also shifting uh the dependencies or the dependencies probably the wrong word but
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the the um the the the connection that those uh migrants have with their with their home countries and so you're actually impacting a whole wealth of countries that are very
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i would say dependent on remittances from these countries i'll take the example of nepal which is a very interesting case in this in in this specific context because a lot of nepalese who work in the gulf remit and they remit up to 30 percent of
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nepal's gdp if you cut that group in half you're cutting a very substantial part of nepal's gdp and suddenly you have a very complicated task for for nepal to deal with and so
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in the ukraine case this is actually happening not in the way that we're actually speaking about mostly in the media it's happening because russia's economy is falling drastically and russia was
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was the source of many countries remittances to the to central asian countries tajikistan was even more dependent than nepal on remittances up to 35 percent uh those remittances are being cut off
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pretty dramatically and pretty quickly and my feeling is that a lot of the story on development in in the in the medium term will actually be in central asia in that sense thank you very much i'm not going to
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take any more time but thanks thank you and i'm glad i follow after jason because i certainly can't in a sense do the kind of economic analysis of uh remittances
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that i think has done so very well so there's so many ways of approaching migration and inequality i was in a bit of a lost as to what to speak about and uh again uh it's good that uh jason's
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spoken on the in a sense the role of the state and migration policies uh on transnational social protection policies and how that uh can contribute to either
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ameliorating or widening the inequalities in not just in the country receiving remittances but as he mentions the knock-on effects on other countries
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i think in the workshop we also heard about another approach looking at inequalities which is to to do with a migrant's experience of inequalities and how this is built on constructions of skills as
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well as how this is cross-cut by notions of gender and ethnicity so these dimensions do come in alongside class as very important factors that shape
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the landscape of inequalities so the pandemic i think has major effects and in accentuating inequalities the closure borders have
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emphasized economic nationalism for many many countries that pulled back and this has accentuated the the in a sense the depiction of temporary migrants as transient
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non-citizens and that has exposed them to xenophobia and discrimination so these are some of the things that came out at the workshop but i was going
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to in a sense speak on something else and which i've been working on which i did present a little bit of at the workshop early on and which is to turn attention away from the state and the
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migrant experience but to look at the measles level to look at the role of the migration industry so this is one of the more recent conceptual contributions
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in the research on migration in the asian context and this is based on the idea that migration is a heavily mediated process that involves the orchestration among a diverse set of
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actors with very different motivations so the term migration industry i think is familiar to most but usually connotes pejorative meanings because it alerts us to the role that um
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brokers play in um in a sense increasing recruitment course and so forth but i think um we need to get beyond that and to look at the significant roles that played by
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a wide range of intermediaries this could be brokers recruiters smugglers travel agents transport providers humanitarian organizations immigrants immigration lawyers housing and
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placement agents how they contribute to the organization for facilitating and channeling our migration flows so for migration scholars uh like myself and
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others who are working on low-skilled migration in the asian context we note that migration is often temporary it's often circular feminized and contractual and these
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these have been a major trend in terms of the rapid growth of a whole ecosystem of intermediaries that fills what's been called the middle space of migration and this has
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in a sense urged many of us to try to open the black box of migration to try to illuminate the kinds of broader infrastructure and that makes mobility possible
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so i just wanted to make a couple of points about shifting attention to the migration industry and adopting migration brokers as a possible
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methodological vantage point and why this might be productive in thinking about inequalities in two ways so firstly i mean are bringing the migration industry into the fall of
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more or less state-centric migration governance analysis allows us to look at the interdependent dynamics between the state and the migration industry in controlling migration
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because um the the argument here is that uh the state orders migration through the migration industry's pursuit of profit and uh they do this not just in the
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pursuit of profit but they also in the course of pursuing profit produce migrants as governable legal subjects that in a sense then become
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more easily uh exploitable more easy to in a sense extract a sort of labor power or profit from these subjects so also by outsourcing certain elements
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of migration governance to the migration industry while at the same time retaining regulatory control the state is able to in a sense save cost to ensure
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flexibility in the system to avoid vilification and to circumvent i think very importantly circumvent the need for formal cooperation with migrant sending countries so this adds to the global
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inequalities between uh destination and origin uh because the middle space is in a sense functions according to the logics of a commercial profit
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a second point that i want to make is that it's by focusing on those who move migrants rather than the migrants themselves that this in a sense paves the way for a more
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a broader conceptualization of the infrastructure that contributes to making mobility possible so no migrants don't just move because they aspire to move they don't just move or they're not
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just constrained from moving because the state says they cannot cannot move there's also the role of the migration industry that does quite a bit of the work in moving these people and
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that is certainly something that we need to take into consideration in thinking about uh global inequalities so in their seminal article i mean um i mentioned this before uh
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and johan lindquist on this article called migration infrastructures they talk about the five dimensions of migration infrastructure firstly to consider the commercial
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uh and here we focus on recruitment into as an example of the commercial logics that is part of the migration impulse secondly i mean definitely you need to
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look at the role of the state the regulatory functions and the state apparatus and procedures and documentation licensing training and so forth these are processes that i think needs to be taken into account
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thirdly the technological i think jason mentioned digital communication digital ways of transferring remittances communications and so forth that dimension has become
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even more important with the onset of the pandemic and fourthly the humanitarian ngos and international organizations are also part of the whole migration
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infrastructure and finally the social which refers to migrants own networks so it's under to understand the drivers and the outcomes of migration and the production of socio-economic
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inequalities require us to in a sense go beyond focusing just on the migrant experience but to attend to these multiple dimensions of the infrastructuring process so these are five processes i mean i'm sure we can
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think of different ways of cutting the cake but i found uh xiang and linkus's ideas about migration infrastructure and the multiple dimensions important to look at and
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in in asia this kind of growing emphasis on migration infrastructures has spawned a whole range of new research from looking at immigration management to labor recruitment and placement
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agencies which is what i work on so even areas like international marriage brokerage because in asia marriage migration which is something that we didn't touch on is actually a very important aspect of
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the movement of people in international movement of people in asia i think we had papers on student mobilities and there the educational infrastructure shaping student
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mobilities would be again another very important aspect and i've got a student working on how in that sense uh uh educational infrastructure is moving to the digital
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platform and the consequences of that i mean because uh yeah of digital brokerage as opposed to face-to-face so this this uh to conclude this
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infrastructural turn if i may in migration studies is both in my mind vital and innovative in foregrounding the social material arrangements that mediate human
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mobilities it explains how profits are extracted from labor laborers for employers and industry it explains how in a sense
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governable subjects are produced out of migrants so as to facilitate states management and it also contributes to our understanding of the uneven
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precarious yet aspirational pathways for migrants themselves yeah thank you very much [Applause] thank you jim for this invitation
00:32:13
i'm my the idea i have is to consider well inequalities between countries and not social inequalities within countries
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so it's a special focus but and i shall consider essentially the
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question of asylum asylum seekers we are now entering into a third wave of uh asylum crisis after
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syria afghanistan and now ukraine and uh as you know maybe we are just now in france in the period of a presidential campaign
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and what is striking if you look at the way the debate is is uh is developing in our country it's really a french french franco-french
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debate well some leaders of the far right have made a pilgrimage in budapest in hungary with the idea of converting france into a new hungary or something
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like this absurd because we have very very different histories and relationships with with migration i i shall elaborate a little uh more on that later
00:33:43
but in general the debate is really limited to to france and when we try to make we don't make comparisons we we are
00:33:54
in the public debate uh most of the political leaders are convinced that france is the most important immigration country in europe that we are more or less threatened by
00:34:08
a migration tsunami for example the formula which is constantly used by marine le pen is la folly migrator the migration craziness
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something like that a fully migrator so the idea that there is nothing rational in our migration policy that we are absolutely overwhelmed by uh waves of migrants and so on
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and there is a and one of the the tricks they use to to to spread this idea is to
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manipulation of the absolute numbers and i'm struck by the contrast they use contrast between the statistical initiation we have now thanks to the coveted crisis the covey
00:35:02
epidemics and the elite the statistical illiteracy we maintain in the field of of migration we know now that for example the
00:35:14
expansion of the epidemics must be measured by for example the incidence rate incidence rate is a number of new cases in a determined period
00:35:26
for a per well 100 000 population or 10 000 population and well and this has been initiated by the financial times and then it came through other
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newspaper across europe and now every day for example in le mans five journalists are updating every day the test statistics of the the covet the cavity pandemics using
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incidence rates and explaining that this for a public health reason it's absolutely indispensable it's the only way to make serious comparisons between periods
00:36:07
between departure more between countries and so on and so on so we've had a fantastic initiation to relative numbers to the to the use of of statistics of relative statistics of
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rates etc in the public health domain a huge contrast with uh immigration field where there is absolutely none of that
00:36:33
never and so just let's take an example in a recent debate eric zemor the new this polemist which
00:36:47
who succeeded in eric zemora [Laughter] who succeeded in
00:36:59
well more or less he has 15 percent or 16 of the the um of the rule yes the voting
00:37:12
intentions now but he explained the other day that we received one million syrians in our country and in fact the true number is about 35
00:37:25
thousand so there is a huge gap between the perception of what we really did and what and and the importance given in the public debate to in this number
00:37:38
well it's of course an exaggeration but many candidates also many uh candidates of the public have also the completely false ideas of the order of magnitude of the
00:37:53
immigration phenomenon in france and it's so personally i i had the opportunity to present the figures of relative figures
00:38:06
to many uh mps or congressman congresswoman maybe 70 of them etc and trying to to insist on the importance of manipulating relative numbers
00:38:18
i think it permeates more or less some minorities within the the parties but the the problem the the the substantial problem behind this question of the
00:38:31
statistical tools is that in many european countries but especially in france it has been measured by by some polls we overestimate our attractivity
00:38:45
and we think that we have a lot of of measures for example special allowance to the asylum seekers medical help for
00:39:00
undocumented illegal migrants the law of a citizenship law based on the the right of the the hollywood soldiers soli
00:39:15
etc and uh in fact of course if we try to make serious comparisons uh this is not the case and i was tracked by the fact that
00:39:26
in last november when the oecd published its last annual report on migration across ocd countries the same day a poll announced
00:39:39
that one third of the public opinion was attracted by hesitating between marine le pen and eric zimur between two versions of the extreme extreme right
00:39:51
which had a narrative who have a narrative on migration which is completely far away what oecd explained so
00:40:04
one of the points in debate is our welcoming or receiving capacities and there is the idea and several programs
00:40:18
include the idea that we should welcome exactly the number of migrants or economic migrants who are required by our welcoming capacity
00:40:29
or by the needs of our economy and we should tailor the the the number of economic migrants according to the capacities
00:40:42
and in fact what is exactly the meaning we could give to the idea of welcoming or receiving capacities in fact it's not a scientific concept it's
00:40:54
a purely a political concept you can for example have the idea that okay the the size of a population population of a pair or a country is a structural
00:41:06
capacity the bigger a country is the able is to to welcome foreigners for example so you can
00:41:17
include into the structural receiving capacities the size of the population demographic dimension the income
00:41:33
the gdp or the gdp are inhabited and so on uh and if you uh have you know you you consider the number of
00:41:45
immigrants asylum seekers or positive decisions taken vis-a-vis asylum seekers etc or if you consider also the all the other categories of migrants
00:41:59
relate the proportionally to the population per million population for example the rank of france in europe comes down from the second rank or the
00:42:11
third rank to the 15th for example and so the attractivity of france is absolutely not at all what we think it is in the in the public debate
00:42:22
and the rest of the capacities of the receiving capacities we have are in fact determined by well political mobilization exactly like the number of uh
00:42:37
respiratory respirators you can use to combat the the covet epidemics it's a this is depending from your mobilization capacity
00:42:49
and um okay so um this is a part of our welcoming capacity the other one is yes the other one is the organization well for example the
00:43:03
administrative organization it is absolutely clear that the federal organization of germany was a very positive asset to welcome people that also the conquered date
00:43:20
the the pact between the state and the religious authorities in germany was extremely helpful to welcome migrants because in these countries the charities ngo organization
00:43:32
benefit from the religious tax which of course does not exist in our like republic so that these charities for example have hospitals they have houses for the
00:43:45
elderly they have equipments etc you don't find the equivalent of this in our country because we are convinced that this is up to the state
00:43:56
and we have this the idea of a vertical link between the state and the citizen and not at all the idea that the welcoming capacities should be yes should be uh based on horizontal
00:44:09
relationships with the rest of the society so um i think i have just mentioned some factors of inequalities
00:44:21
between countries i don't have any solution to reverse the history of course there is another source of diversity or inequality is the relationship we have with the colonial ex-colonial empire the
00:44:35
eastern country had no where themselves the colony of the soviet uh union and so of course the and and the last uh point
00:44:47
is the fact that uh rent i don't know if you have this the fact that for example some countries are in the first line the as island states or greece or cyprus or malta or by far
00:45:06
the countries in europe which proportionate to the population have to welcome the highest number of asylum seekers and give a decisive a positive decisions with
00:45:18
these asylum seekers and this is due of course to the doubling regulation which consists in deepening the gap between countries instead of or homogenizing and instead of
00:45:30
establishing any equalities between countries so this is more or less in a descriptive way and the picture i can trace of the european situation
00:45:41
which is very of course problematic okay [Applause] first thanks a lot ellen and jim for the invitation i'm
00:46:00
very happy to be here i'm quite embarrassed because i i couldn't make it for to attend these two days and i'm also embarrassed because during this uh roundtable maybe
00:46:10
my my um my speech is going to be a little bit different um i'll speak from the perspective of a sociologist with a kind of scholarly
00:46:21
approach a bit distant from uh let's say more policy oriented approach that we've just we've just heard and tackling very press pressing issues
00:46:35
uh but i believe actually uh this uh these questions the relation between migration and inequality can have very relevant policy implications um so i i've i've been trained uh and
00:46:47
i'm still working uh surrounded by social stratification scholars so people who work actually on social mobility the role of education social class
00:47:00
socioeconomic attainment etc and i've been working uh on migration for 20 years now and it's striking if you open a textbook on social stratification and social
00:47:12
mobility which are really the central fields um classic field in sociology it's writing that it's very rare to find like a chapter that tackles specifically migration you'll find sporadically
00:47:24
migration tackled mainly in the ethnic and racial chapter if it's a u.s textbook and in in europe what we what we actually um see more and more is that migration
00:47:36
tends to be connected let's say to the equal opportunity approach to social inequality with the discrimination literature focusing on immigrant background as one discriminatory characteristic and it's not very clear actually in this
00:47:49
literature to what extent it's migration by itself or other characteristics that are related to migration and so i tried um i tried a bit to to to clarify
00:48:01
uh the connection of migration to social equality in the book that is entitled migration and inequality and i i actually the book is uh a synthesis of a a lot of different
00:48:13
um research that that connect to this topic in migration studies you'll find three important questions theories of migration
00:48:25
assimilation which is really a very dominant framework what migrants become and then [Music] the consequences of migration and in these three questions you will again find some kind of inequality perspective
00:48:38
but not completely unified uh um and a clear framing and in this book i try to argue that actually migration is a very interesting case study for for social stratification research and
00:48:51
social inequality and i i try to to argue that it's an interesting case study because it it it helps us actually discuss the all the different dimensions of
00:49:05
social inequalities different resources multi-dimensional resources of social inequality but also it's a very interdisciplinary actually case study where you have to actually use a lot of different disciplinary perspectives such as
00:49:18
economic sociology social psychology population studies etc legal studies and um and also i argue that it it actually it it it relates to both what we call in the
00:49:29
literature cultural and structural mechanisms of social inequality also multi-level processes the the micro the meso the micro level etc and then i try to
00:49:42
try to for instance discuss the definition of immigration by itself um and the fact that um it's actually today a category of inequality that is
00:49:54
very important in migration societies because it's an ascriptive characteristics it's related to birth place as is as defined and so birthplace is something you cannot change and also it's durable in the sense that it
00:50:07
i mean it it's been shown to affect socioeconomic outcomes for a long time and it's transmittable to some extent since we also discuss uh the attainments of second generation and now
00:50:20
in france with theo we will work on the third generation of migrants so as an ascriptive durable and transmittable characteristic this has a lot of implications in terms of relation to social inequality and
00:50:33
distribution of resources in the book i try to sketch a simplified model of social inequality asking three questions the resources what resources are the categories whom
00:50:46
and the question of the mechanisms of inequality and i i show that migration actually relates to social inequality by affecting three different channels the first one is the economic channel
00:50:59
and here the resources labor and social positions as social stratification scholars like to to to to call them and i i discuss here actually
00:51:11
classic cases of guest workers of of of care workers today in today's economy in the second the second channel is the legal channel and here i discuss actually right as
00:51:25
being the main resource and then i discuss actually the literature um that shows how um rights can affect actually other social socioeconomic outcomes and i elaborate a lot on the examples of undocumented
00:51:38
migrants and refugee more recently and thirdly i discussed the implication on the ethnoracial channel and here actually i the main resource is respect or what sociologists like to call also
00:51:52
more or worse and and here i discuss also the literature um mainly based on on the u.s um how am i on how a migration affects ethno-racial
00:52:04
classifications in societies and so um in this book i i i highlight mainly the fact that migration affects three type of categorizations that are central to social inequality dynamics in
00:52:16
today's societies um types of workers types of citizens and types of humans with these three channels now if i have a few more minutes maybe i can tell you
00:52:29
a bit of some of the empirical studies that i'm conducting right now on the on each of these channels and maybe since jim maybe said that i work on citizenship i'll
00:52:41
focus on the legal channel i have some ongoing work on each of these channels but maybe on the legal channel in particular [Music] so again we have a lot of of studies that show that
00:52:54
legal status affects attainments migrants attainments in societies but it's not very clear whether legal status at entries i mean there's a lot of studies on undocumented migrants
00:53:07
mainly in the us but also more and more and other countries that show clearly negative outcomes including actually non-economic ones such as health etc
00:53:20
but it's not very clear to what extent legal status at entry has lasting effects on immigrants outcomes in societies and actually we have some methodological issues here because
00:53:31
migrants are selected into legal status and so um recently we've used a taiyo survey maybe you you're familiar with the trajectory origin this
00:53:44
very rich french data set where we have a lot of information on pre-migratory uh trajectories that we can actually account for and we have information on
00:53:56
for the first legal status you can entry in france and what we find is that so gross correlation so what you see initially is that status such as
00:54:08
students or spouse status are actually positively correlated with economic outcomes such as income or or other neighborhood outcomes that we actually
00:54:21
have in the data such as the neighborhood average income or the neighborhood proportion of immigrants refugees on the contrary are actually negatively correlated with these
00:54:32
outcomes but once you you account for pre-selection into these um these um categories and we have several several methodologies to do so actually we find that it's only the refugee status that
00:54:45
seems to affect durably and and other other effects are mainly related to selection basically the refugee status is also partly related to selection so when you control for
00:54:58
pre-migratory trajectories actually the effect is lower but it's still it's it's still significant mainly on income for instance and also interestingly on the proportion of migrants in the
00:55:11
neighborhood i won't elaborate too much on this example just let me move to another one and here i won't have a lot of findings because it's ongoing work but another idea that is related to the
00:55:24
legal channel is of course naturalization and i've done some work with some other colleagues on the effect of naturalization on immigrants outcomes in mainly the labor market outcomes and
00:55:36
there are uh today several studies that converge on showing that naturalization has a positive effects even correcting for selection into naturalization now what's interesting is that this this
00:55:48
particular effect of the legal uh um the the legal status seems to be transmittable um so the question is whether we have some kind of uh effect of
00:56:00
naturalization on second generations socioeconomic outcomes and now that some some data sets can allow us actually to to delve further into this question to what extent actually parental naturalization can have lasting
00:56:13
effects on second generation so people who are born in the country in countries such in france actually these people are french overwhelmingly friendship and majority but still they can have different social mobility
00:56:26
pathways that are related somehow to the to their parental naturalization and more specifically to the timing of their parental specific uh naturalization i've been working on these
00:56:38
questions also uh more recently so um i'll stop here thank you very much so thank you jim for being so careful to assess equality across disciplines and caring
00:56:54
for the status of economics in this panel so other economies could have taken this this role obviously and would have presented different perspective but maybe very quickly
00:57:07
i want to say one word on global inequality i think we should distinguish global inequality and local inequalities you could ask the connection between migration global inequality but also locally whether migration increases
00:57:20
inequality within communities or not so we'll speak mostly on global inequality i want to to see something uh i like to when i'm teaching you know
00:57:32
undergrads i start by saying you know if you would want to study inequality at the global level and peek randomly with a helicopter people around the earth and ask them what is
00:57:44
their income and take a whole range of information on them you would find eventually that their gender their education their age their experience their iq
00:57:56
anything uh you know characterizing them explains 20 to 30 percent of inequality between people and and the single one factor explaining 75 percent of global
00:58:09
inequalities where you are born so it means also that when you do development there is a and you improve you know inequality within countries this has a relatively weak effect on
00:58:22
global inequality while when you move people from poor to co to rich countries this has a very strong direct effect on reducing global inequality so there is no good
00:58:33
real substitute to more migration to reduce global inequality and i think it's uh that now from this you ask yourself so is inequality injustice and it's not the same inequality is not
00:58:47
necessarily just injustice but i think we would all agree that where you are born is not your choice and you are not you didn't do anything wrong by being born in in country a or country b
00:58:59
and so if you try to apply for the most standard and well-known uh concept of justice which is the veil of ignorance and you would ask people would you be more for more open borders
00:59:13
without knowing and the veil of ignorance in which country you would be born obviously everybody would be for a much open world than than the current uh situation now there are different and from there
00:59:25
you if you admit this you ask yourself so what what can we do what are the ways to do it and and and different social sciences are thinking uh about this including economics
00:59:37
but uh yeah so i will leave this open for the the sake of time but i'm happy to to talk more privately about this um two two very quick things about local inequality
00:59:50
uh this is more common on what jason said uh initially usually migration increases inequality because only the people who are rich enough to afford this investment to to are not credit
01:00:02
constrained can make the investment so the remittance is income go to relatively more uh richer and more affluent families so within communities you have a rise of inequality but then over time
01:00:16
these richer migrants form networks who can benefit the the people down in the income distribution and and then this has
01:00:28
a kind of um you know a inequality reducing effect uh and so it's depends so when people look at one context at one point in time
01:00:41
whatever conclusion they find would depend on in which phase of the migration inequality relationship that community is now my last point is a comment on myrna
01:00:53
i'm also fascinated by the this question of citizenship i don't know if it's uh kind of the effect of having a prize or something that changes your behavior
01:01:08
because you are you receive some distinction let's say access to citizenship or if this is because of opportunities i think it's a it's an interesting question i have a meeting
01:01:21
at the ministry of the interior to to try to to work on on naturalization that next week maybe you want to join me i want to convince them to to give citizenship randomly
01:01:34
for the sake of research i know it will i know it will be a hard uh a long shot let's say but maybe if we join forces we have matches thank you all right
01:01:48
hello everyone my name is stephen manning i'm a senior tower scholar studying finance and math and my question could really go to the entire panel but i think mirna would have a particularly interesting
01:02:00
perspective it has to do with the relationship between migration-induced ethnic diversity and kind of the welfare solidarity that we're seeing in higher income countries
01:02:12
and as we're coming out of the pandemic and entering an era of perhaps more economic nationalism than we had seen in the last 20 years what steps do you think need to be taken
01:02:26
to mitigate or prevent xenophobia from developing and preserve that welfare solidarity that makes a social safety net like we have in the united states and western europe more
01:02:38
sustainable in a world with higher migration an enormous question i think rather than taking more questions i'd like to hear a quick just a quick response from everybody on the panel about this i don't know if this is
01:02:52
the only microphone working but i'll pass it around so you're asking a question that milton friedman famously asked and he said can we have uh mass immigration and the
01:03:06
general's welfare system it was obvious yeah he said we can't so we would like to to to tell he's wrong but i'm not sure we
01:03:20
can do that yes he believes it was obvious that strong social protection could be compatible with important immigration well it has
01:03:33
been completely counted by the last for example oecd report because the oecd every year has updates the data about uh
01:03:48
immigration and they add also a specific studies which change from one year to another and in the last edition of the you have an interesting assessment of
01:04:01
the public the the fiscal impact of immigration on social protection data across the oecd countries and once again once again because it's not
01:04:13
the first time but this time the study is much more elaborate than the in the previous one the the conclusion is that no there is a very very few very limited
01:04:25
fiscal impact of migration on the solidarity system social protection system because the the
01:04:37
the contribution of migrants to the fiscal system is as important as the benefits they take from from the system so this is one of the most
01:04:50
fascinating example of the gap between uh the the facts and and and the public discourse but now you have uh you know i think i mean
01:05:02
both i mean there are many questions but uh the two main questions so is migration really um to what extent um um so uh the diversity is related to
01:05:14
like decrease in social cohesion and welfare support this is this is under understudy let's say hey i won't say a lot of on this but um even the second part of your question so
01:05:27
to what extent migration is driving diversity it's also under under research i would say and it's not so obvious so a lot of of studies on ethno-racial
01:05:38
on ethno-racial reconfigurations actually provide examples where migration can be actually on the contrary uh some some kind of unmixing effects or even lowering diversity or at least
01:05:51
changing the social strategy the social the ethno-racial classification just to give you a historical example that is well known and well studied of course how the irish became white okay and this idea that uh
01:06:04
people actually when they migrate they they they introduce new materials ethno-racial materials and these materials are dynamics and they can change the classifications that are at stake in europe we can think about eastern european migrations and the ways
01:06:17
in which eastern european migration will change actually also the ethno-racial classification and another example maybe that is very telling is is african migration to the u.s african
01:06:30
migration in the us is introducing actually um a different correlation between skin color and socioeconomic uh resources because african migrants tend to be actually highly educated and so a
01:06:44
lot of researchers on really the extent to which this migration can change the significance of skin color if it's if it's sustained my point is that these things have to be
01:06:56
understood in a dynamic way and it's not so straightforward both questions are not so straightforward in terms of the answers it's just uh so i've i i was at the at the two day
01:07:09
conference so we i could i could listen to that you know the different stories that you uh you you came with um so i um something which is um
01:07:22
yeah i'm curious to to to have your views on this uh we so we talked about a lot of the about the transformative role of migration and and so you had this very nice contribution uh providing
01:07:34
convincing evidence that you know that migrants uh contribute to diffuse knowledge to diffuse new ideas uh and these go through a change that migration is producing on them right so they they
01:07:45
move to another country so they they are confronted with new ideas new new norms and and when they go back to their country or through you know phone calls etc they contribute to change uh ids in their uh
01:07:58
in in their country of origin something which we i think we didn't talk about is whether there are some gender differences uh uh uh with regards the transformative rule of
01:08:10
migration i think there is i mean that there was a very strong inequality uh with regards access to migration between women and and men right for for a long time uh uh migration was mainly a male
01:08:23
phenomenon or i mean you had i mean of course it's it's it's i'm i'm maybe i'm talking a bit a little bit about africa than asia but in sub-saharan africa a lot of uh you know a lot of migration where uh uh
01:08:37
either male migration or uh females moving with their husbands for example so so but but now i think this has completely changed you have a lot of autonomous migration from with with
01:08:49
involving women and and uh i guess it is likely to to uh to make a real difference in terms of the division of ideas and and the change of norms uh locally speaking so i'd like to have
01:09:02
your view on on this because this is something we didn't talk about at all during those two days um i had um yeah i had a very quick
01:09:13
question but it's maybe uh i will talk together uh thank you very much i just want to thank jim and helene again for organizing this great conference into the presenters for doing such a great job um so we've been
01:09:29
here for a couple days and we've had an incredible diversity of approaches and ideas that have been presented just as we're kind of winding down now i'd love to get this panel's opinion on
01:09:40
what are the most important unanswered questions left on the table or where should we go next right as a group of academics and what are the most pressing questions that probably need to be answered
01:09:54
that's an easy one daniel will have a very pointed question uh um yeah of course um again thanks thanks also um um from me for to all the presenters and the organizers amazing
01:10:12
wealth of information we when we talk about inequality and migration we know that uh for example um in the sdg sustainable development goals 10.7 um and deals with migration
01:10:24
governance 10. c with remittances which is in the goal on inequalities within and between countries um so we talked about the the place premium and how much um that actually may um
01:10:36
lead to less inequality like exchanging of welfare between countries for the individuals or the communities that benefit from that but what we haven't talked about too much is about how
01:10:48
limits in rights in the communities of destination can also perpetuate inequalities right the migrants who come here and often have great opportunities we've talked about the place premium and how the wage increases that they benefit
01:11:01
as great but because of limited rights because of labor demand we talked about that has an impact on um with coupled with the restriction of rights um leading to irregular migrants the community labor demand plus recreative
01:11:14
rights and irregular migrants and other migrants who have the the domestic workers you mentioned and that have very limited rights in terms of permanence about of marriage or other important rights um which creates a in very clear
01:11:26
in inequality between the migrant communities and the non-migrant communities or sometimes between different microcommunities and other migrant communities so how can we address these inequalities too and really come from a rights-based approach but also from a development approach to
01:11:39
really really make it happen that those migrants can move up and then distribute those welfare gains better now and take a round of answers to this question gender
01:11:54
research agendas and daniel's last question so who would like to start on the panel here brenda i think one of those microphones is working that one's working okay yeah i can't resist the gender question
01:12:07
because i think it's important that we add that to the discussion and we really haven't said very much about it during the workshop so i think again my answers are basically from the
01:12:19
asian context because this is where i work where there has been a feminization of migration and in terms of the percentages is 48 of the migrants on the move are now
01:12:32
women in in southeast asia so and they of course moved to sort of a very gendered division of labor kind of jobs in care work in domestic work uh entertainment work and
01:12:44
so forth so and what we are finding is that the demand for because of the the care deficits in global households in many places uh with within asia or elsewhere
01:12:56
has meant that there's there's stimulated sort of high demand for care workers domestic workers which are all female so it's a very gender segmented market so this leads to questions about the
01:13:09
care chain so one of the important issues that i've been working on is that as women move to the industrialized countries economies in
01:13:20
the north to fill the care deficits uh what happens in the southernmost end of the globe the global care chain so what happens in the um in the in the source countries and there
01:13:34
i was hoping to have optimistic answers that as women move out of care work this will be substituted by men taking on carols and uh i wouldn't say that uh it's it's
01:13:48
it's again again this is not to vilify men or or and so forth what we found in several projects is that in in southeast asia in the philippines in indonesia in vietnam is that the men do step up to
01:14:02
fatherhood they in a sense have to assume different masculine roles as responsible fathers now that their their wives are the breadwinners the primary breadwinners so
01:14:15
this idea that they're all drunks and sort of uh delinquents and all that we didn't find that so i'm not trying to rescue the men but i'm just saying that the men do step up to to care work but
01:14:28
it is not a revolution it's not a sort of uh the the women model the women care model still remains because of course men do care work differently they do that with a lot of
01:14:41
help from other women from the grandmothers from the aunts and so forth so many of the men will say continue to hold on to some kind of paid work because that's part of their masculine
01:14:52
identities so but they want to be seen to be in a sense contributing the care what so but so we see a different kind of uh caring work developing so to me
01:15:03
the big question is is this going to be gender transformative in the future so because uh the demand for work uh better paid work is actually for women now
01:15:16
in the southeast asian context so you you at least partially answered raymond's question there that the migration is going to be transforming gender roles who else would like to weigh in on these questions
01:15:28
well about the the question of the of rights if you look at most of the european countries now we could say that a majority of migrants
01:15:41
do enter into the these countries because they have the rights to because of family unification asylum
01:15:54
permits as well to some extent international students are part of this right system because you have more or less the de facto the right to
01:16:07
make good studies in a good university abroad and this is a much up to the decision of the university than the government well it depends from the
01:16:20
countries of course but in general if you sum up the number of migrants who uh whose uh admission is uh rights based and not
01:16:32
economic base it's it's much higher this is a case in france now of course you have a huge diversity between the distribution of the distribution of the categories of pyramids uh across europe
01:16:44
it's very striking for example in germany two-thirds of the new uh annual permits uh are given to the uh other european people
01:16:57
uh benefiting from the free circulation which is a right stone and there's a free circulation of european surgery two-thirds of the foreigners who are living were accepted admitted in uh in
01:17:09
germany are admitted because of free circulation in france it's only one-third there's a huge difference and you have the same rule of law the same
01:17:22
international right but the way each country is using it is very different in the uk in the uk it was also two-thirds before the brexit and the brexit was of course
01:17:33
directed against uh the importance of the european uh migration etc so and it's not easy to understand why there are so many so huge differences
01:17:45
between uh in the distribution of the categories of pyramids from one country to another in europe this is a legacy of history to some part of the product of the of the internal law et
01:17:58
cetera but i don't i don't know if any of the other panelists want to quickly on this question or should we go back and take another quick round of questions why don't we take one more quick round of questions because we're going to run
01:18:11
out of time and ellen you want to weigh in it's working okay just to piggyback on raymond's challenges we need to find you know the the new questions and the new things that we want to talk about things that
01:18:31
we haven't addressed in two days and i think we've already with pia and and a lot of presenters we've we've started to discuss the you know the how migration help us understand in a more
01:18:43
sophisticated way the relation between global inequalities and within countries inequalities and the and trying to bridge the gap between the individual level both in economic terms
01:18:55
or in anthropological terms as eliot use or you know from various perspectives and and the more meso and macro level um for instance the the question of inequality and the perception of one's
01:19:07
position or one's benefits uh within a society that of course changes when you move space and you move society so from low or middle or high income countries uh where you move in your position
01:19:20
within this society which are things that you know relate to relative uh relative inequality or i don't know if that's the term you know the uh to to use it um and it in a way moving away
01:19:32
from seeing migration as a sort of macro equalizer under any condition and trying to look at these very various levels and and various processes that are uh
01:19:45
working between countries and within countries and and so it's not a it's not an answer but paying attention to this uh i think is something that we've learned
01:19:57
you know to across this two days at least that's something that i keep uh i think i think all this is being recorded so it will be will be something we can come back to and don't turn it off just hand it back to the panelists but let's take one more very quick round of
01:20:10
questions and then we're going to go have a drink and eat something so uh i know catherine wanted to get in malabica malabika no anyone else well i think it would be very
01:20:21
appropriate to give katrin the last question of the day madame de vanden perhaps we didn't speak a lot about migration control which is a
01:20:33
global context of migration policies and the gap between the globalization of the right to move since the 1990s mostly and the restrictive policies to
01:20:46
enter of immigration and the differential status whether you are going from south to south south to north north to now north and north to south the the
01:20:59
status of migrants are very different according to these different parts of the world and it has a very important impact on positive or negative effects of
01:21:13
migration perhaps we didn't speak a lot about the negative aspects of migration which is also a topic perhaps we cannot speak about that in the public opinion debate we have during these presidential
01:21:25
elections but for example in some cases in phds in field study we see that migration may reinforce especially for those who are undocumented the the
01:21:38
restrictive way of life in the family life without being inserted in the whole society where they are living for example
01:21:50
another impact can be if the migrants are going to very conservative countries they can have may have more conservative demographic behaviors
01:22:03
for example there are a lot of examples we could give about that so i think we have to be careful about this beautiful uh approach we have had during these two
01:22:15
days anyone want to say something negative about migration before we stop here let's just quickly uh brenda wants to respond but i think we take a uh one last round of responses and then we're
01:22:27
going to stop yeah okay so i can say something negative about migration actually we yeah yeah the one negative thing i should say
01:22:43
is something that we we wrote in a recent note we we wrote with emmanuel royal for the council of economic advisors in france on immigration and we reflected on
01:22:56
france failure in the vaccine race and we said this is the fault of the immigrants that france has no vaccine the immigrants that we didn't take
01:23:07
the immigrants that we didn't promote so look look at all the you know the the success stories that are in the vaccine and the startups and modernized pfizer and biogen it's a whole it's all about
01:23:21
immigration diversity innovation and so on so that's the one thing negative i can say about migration and that's it all right i think a very remiss of me and not to
01:23:34
mention or mention and i think what what uh i really really want to in uh in essence add to the debate that is that we do need to attend to the migration regime that we're talking about because
01:23:46
much of the discourse that so the norms the discourses and the policies vary according to the migration regime and in an asian case where the temporary migration regime is dominant um
01:23:59
there's no talk about rights i mean there's the whole model of migration and settlement integration or assimilation or is not something that's uh prevalent
01:24:11
in in the case of temporary labor migration so in that case migrants are welcome to labor but they're not welcome to stay there are no pathways to citizenship or settlement or
01:24:24
residency and so forth so in a sense there's not even policies to do with integration there are policies to do with non-integration i mean uh non-citizenship that is uh i think
01:24:36
something that we do need to take into account because it varies according to the migration regime that's that's dominant i'm not saying that every that is so neatly divided that asia is
01:24:48
only temporary migration and europe is you know migration and settlement i mean it varies of course but i think the dominant migration regime does influence the normative discourses that
01:25:00
surround migration so i think that's important but i just want to add one last point which is that i think a big question back to what are the unanswered questions does the pandemic shift our normative
01:25:12
discourses about migration and you might say that's very negative in the temporary migration regime so the the pandemic would worsen the discourse but actually there are so there's silver lining as well because
01:25:26
with border controls being being imposed and borders becoming tightened remember that the temporary migration regime depends on churning migrants back
01:25:38
and forth so it only works the triple win migration discourse is to do with churning migrants back and forth from sending to origin countries again and again based on contracts but
01:25:51
with the borders sort of shutting down and migrants being in a sense immobilized in either sending or origin countries in in origin in destination countries which are
01:26:04
highly dependent on labour migrants and singapore will be one the value of temporary migrants have now become increased because there are shortages in the construction industry the shortages
01:26:16
in the domestic work industry and um we are seeing migrants having a little bit more of bargaining power even in terms of asking for higher salaries or small rights like a day off
01:26:28
and so forth so i'm not saying that i'm not trying to counter the negativity in the room but just to say that maybe that's hope in the same line uh some traits of the singaporean migration policy
01:26:44
looked like was the the policy which obtained in the communist countries before the the fall of the yes if a woman was found pregnant in a democratic republic of germany for
01:27:01
example she had to to to get back or to abort and this was drastic and there is now a lot of research in germany about this uh the way that this policy was the revolving door policy at the end of the
01:27:15
communist regime in in gdr it was a rather important uh migration and so of course this is absolutely out of the the rule of law that is contrary
01:27:28
to the rule of law because the right to marry everyone you want is one of the is an article of the universal uh the declaration of rights of human rights and so i and what happens in the in
01:27:41
europe in the 50s and the 60s we had also more or less something like that for example the the the firms had the this terrible practice that they dismissed uh the the workers uh in
01:27:56
the beginning of the summer and they they re-hide the the workers in in fall you know in september and so people were not paid during the holidays and it was thanks to
01:28:08
the action of the the diplomacy especially of italy but also of spain and and there was also an an allusion to the fight by the uh
01:28:21
trade unions of the recently received countries but the diplomatic action of italy had played an important role in order to give to this guest workers and their
01:28:33
temporary workers a permanency and the right to create a family and to convert this family this work uh immigration into a family migration and the settlement migration i
01:28:46
think this is the the way that singapore will have to follow anywhere in any way for example in the gulf countries you realize that now the average duration of the of the migrants is around six years
01:28:58
which begins to be a rather important stay and it's not just one year and two years so the revolution is in this direction and there is an important question is
01:29:10
how why countries such as india for example or bangladesh do not have a strong diplomatic action in order to protect their citizens in the
01:29:23
destination countries this is an interesting topic for a political scientist yeah very quickly maybe just with regard border control i think you're perfectly right i think it's a very important
01:29:37
topic to connect migration to inequality at least through uh two things like two general things like the increase of border control during the last decade actually is a
01:29:51
very impressive machine of categorization so you when you control you need actually to create new categories and and this has been the story of the migration state and a lot of of countries uh and
01:30:04
this actually uh distribute different uh different rights across these categories etc so we have here a very direct mechanism of creation of categories of knowledge and the second is the second
01:30:16
mechanism which is also very impressive is that actually today border control is the source of another inequality related to just um you know survival so we have
01:30:28
more and more uh uh dangerous uh um border crossing and and the research on how migration kills today uh is is is one of the most innovative ones just a figure with regard to the
01:30:41
questions about about 20 000 deaths in the mediterranean sea since 2003 20 000. migrants trying to death on the border
01:30:53
in the u.s all the walls fences etc so i'm going to stop here you
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