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[Kent] OK. Welcome. And hello to everybody. I want to thank you so much for joining us to celebrate Open Education Week. I'm Kent Rondeau from the Alberta School of Business, University of Alberta. I'm very pleased to introduce this session titled The Middle of the Open Road. Our presenters today are Dan Cockcroft of Athabasca University. Josie Gray, at the BCampus,
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Alexander Enkurki, of Collecto, and Emily Carlisle-Johnson of Western University. So let's all say welcome in the chat or with a zoom reaction or wave in your camera if you need to or want to as they get started. So I guess we're on our way. [Dan] Thanks for that great introduction, Kent. So before we get started, we actually like to take
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the opportunity to situate and reflect on where we are speaking from. So as Kent mentioned, I'm Dan Cockcroft. I'm the OER librarian at Athabasca University. I'm facilitating this panel today. So personally, I would like to acknowledge that I'm on the traditional territory of the K’omoks, Coast Salish, and Qualicum peoples. I honor the ancestry, heritage and gifts of the indigenous peoples and give thanks to them. Josie, would you like to go next?
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[Josie] Sure. Thanks. Hi, everyone. My name is Josie Gray. I am a white settler of mixed European ancestry, and I live and work on the traditional and unceded territories of the lək̓ʷəŋən speaking Peoples of the Songhees and Esquimalt Nations and the lands of the W̱SÁNEĆ People. And I've been an uninvited settler here on these lands for eight years, and I'm very grateful for the time that I've spent here.
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It's where I completed my undergraduate degree and where I started my work in open education and also where I completed my master's degree while studying from home during the pandemic. As mentioned, I work for BC Campus on the Open Education Team as the manager production and publishing. So as such, I'm closely involved with supporting the creation and adaptation of Open Educational Resources and do a lot of work related to accessibility
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and I'll also be bringing my perspective as a former student to our conversation today, as I did experience Open Pedagogy as a master student and my major project explored questions of openness and knowledge equity. [Dan] Emily, would you like to go next? [Emily] Yes, sure. Hi, everyone. Thanks for being here. I am a research and scholarly communications librarian at Western University, which is located on the traditional lands of the Anishinaabek,
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Haudenosaunee, Lūnaapéewak and Attawandaron. Here I was a student and I did my master's degree here for several years, and now in my work as a librarian, I support Open Publishing, which informs a lot of the work that I do to support faculty and students with open pedagogy as well. [Dan] Alex, would you like to go next?
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[Alex] Sure. So I'm Alex Enkerli. I'm in Tiohtiá:ke, also known as Montreal, which is the traditional unseeded land of the Kanien’kehà:ka people, part of the Haudenosaunee. And I've been, I grew up here, so I've been an uninvited guest as a settler of their European heritage. My father's actually from Switzerland for 49 years since my birth and
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I did study here and I did experience open education, mostly as a teacher. So I taught for 20 years in universities in the US and Canada, and I tend to focus on open pedagogy in many ways. This or we'll discuss that, obviously. [Dan] And so our topic today is the middle of the open road or an exploration into the
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pedagogical advantages, disadvantages, ethics and considerations in response to the question how open should open pedagogies be? So maybe a great place to start this discussion is personal perspectives and experiences with open pedagogy. Emily, what is open pedagogy to you? [Emily] Thanks Dan. I like that you, that we've worded this question to you because I realize that there are a lot of different definitions of open
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pedagogy and not necessarily any sort of agreed upon definition. So for me personally, I tend to gravitate towards that definition that's provided by Abbey Elder who was a librarian at Iowa State University and who has written an OER starter kids and there is a chapter in there on open pedagogy. So, a loosely paraphrase the definition that's provided there,
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which basically says that open pedagogy is a series of practices that involve engaging students in a course as creators of content and knowledge through the development, adaptation or use of open educational resources. So basically to me, when I think of open pedagogy, I see it as a practice or an approach where students are treated as creators of knowledge and information rather than just consumers of knowledge.
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So that is my answer. In short. [Dan] Alex, let's have you go next. [Alex] OK? Yeah, to me, I tend to be fairly radical about this, I guess, but to me, open pedagogy goes all the way to who decides what counts as material to be taught, it's not free fall. There's actually a distinction in French between free and open
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pedagogy itself, since the sixties and free pedagogy in that sense, like lib, it can be really wide and it could be free for all. But in this case, open pedagogy since the sixties can really be basically negotiating what is the knowledge that we want to create together and what counts as knowledge to be taught? I think it can go all the way to that,
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not taking for granted that traditional knowledge shouldn't be taught or should be a certain way. [Dan] Josie, how about you? [Josie] I'm, I think, kind of very similar to what Emily shared for myself. I've been thinking of open pedagogy as a way to support students in creating and contributing to knowledge, as well as having an agency over their own learning rather than being passive consumers, of course, content. So with open
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educational resources, we are considering who gets access to knowledge and working to increase that access by sharing open educational resources for free online and with open pedagogy. We are considering what role learners can play in shaping and contributing to knowledge and kind of see it as a way to empower learners to contribute to their own learning as well as that of those around them. So it could mean leveraging open licenses.
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So that students can customize and add to and complicate their course learning materials. It could also mean giving students an option to do coursework that has a sorry… mean giving students options to do coursework that has relevance and can be shared beyond the learning management system or just bringing them into the design and approach of the course itself.
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[Dan] Definitely. I love how there's so many different perspectives on this. That's great. So yeah, there's a lot of flexibility about what open pedagogy is to different people, but why might we use open pedagogy thanks. And there are multiple reasons, some of which inspire me. Actually, you just mentioned flexibility, and I think there's a lot to be gained by thinking about flexibility
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in there, is that open pedagogy is not just about access. It's very important to both access. Obviously, in terms of justice inequity, there's also something to be said about being flexible during the learning process. And I draw inspiration from the UNESCO recommendation on Open Science. We talk a lot about the UNESCO recommendation, about lawyers as open educational resources,
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but the open science one is also pretty useful. It's been adopted just a few months ago, so it's quite relevant and it does talk about flexibility to the extent that it's even epistemic flexibility. How do we gain knowledge or how do we create knowledge in science? It can go all the way to redefining that. So using open pedagogies are, it's a way
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also to be more flexible about as I was saying, about what can be learned or taught as knowledge to be to be taught. But it's also about justice and in this case epistemic justice, that different knowledge systems can be worthwhile. We might decide that together in some ways, not imposing in a certain way. So it's opening up to different knowledge systems, including some that have been
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underrepresented for hundreds of years, and which leads to pedagogical inclusion. It's a large trend across the world these days, too, to be as inclusive as possible. And there's been a whole controversy about learning styles and such learning professionals really know about these things, but it's not about styles necessarily, or about certain things that some people can do, and others can’t.
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It's more about learning together to be inclusive by our learning process. So by using open pedagogies, it's also including people whose perspectives we can benefit from. And obviously when they become, you know, professionals as well as citizens, as citizens of any society, it's very
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beneficial to have all of those voices included in the learning process because then, you know, actually underlines democracy in a participatory way instead of just a representation. It also implies open pedagogy also implies a shift in role as well. As Josie and Emily said, you know, its students are involved not just passively, but as actual creators,
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code designers and so on. So, it's shifted the roles that we play. As I said, I taught for 20 years and my role as a teacher has always been to create an environment in which learning happens. Sometimes I say, especially with other teachers, that a lot of learning happens despite teachers so people can watch, you know, YouTube videos. There's a lot of the information as we know
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these days with the war. So there's a lot of learning that happens and the learning might be very appropriate in some cases. There's a lot of cases where people are able to self-teach, so high technology, or is the one where it's basically being self-taught in some ways. And there can be structure to that. And in some cases it's fully inappropriate. And the role of a
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teacher in that case in a case of open pedagogy is not necessarily to see what it is, but to kind of guide the learning experience towards things that are appropriate for the context. [Dan] So yeah, so there's so many great reasons to use open pedagogies. Let's, let's trouble that a little. What are some of the things you need to consider when you're using open pedagogies? I'll hand it over to Josie and Emily.
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[Josie] Thank you. So I think like Alex was talking about justice and inclusion and flexibility, a big thing to consider here is that openness as a concept or an approach isn't an objective good just on its own openness will not create an equitable learning experience without a lot of other considerations and frameworks needing to be brought into that. So this is true when talking about open educational resources.
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Just because a resource is free on the Internet does not mean it will provide an equitable learning experience or OCR can be inaccessible to disabled students or students who don't have reliable access to Internet and digital devices. In addition, content within these resources can reproduce systems of exclusion and domination and bias like racism, sexism, transphobia, et cetera, and access to Internet and digital materials and the accessibility of digital platforms.
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All of those things are relevant when exploring open pedagogy as well. Many open pedagogy approaches make use of digital spaces and tools, so making it paying attention to access needs and providing flexible, flexible options is super important. In addition, openness is not always appropriate, and it has a potential to do a lot of harm, especially done without consent and paying attention to context.
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So it's important to consider what the value of open openness is versus the potential risk, and for students to be fully informed about those things. So, for example, Tara Robertson gave a talk at Open Conn in 2017 where she talked about who is missing in conversations about openness and she shared a story of an out of print lesbian porn magazine that was being digitized digitally housed and shared under a Creative
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Commons license without the consent of the models who are pictured in the collection. So Tara notes that this license allows feminist porn to be remixed in ways that could appropriate the content and demean women and shares a quote from the model who feared that the images might be the use the images might be put to if digitized and made available under a license that allows for remixing and sharing.
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In addition, Dr. Tressie McMillan-Cotton has shared… has written about the risk of public facing scholarship and how that risk is so much greater for marginalized people who are more likely to be subject to harassment and are less likely to have powerful networks to back them up. And so this is true also of students who you may be asking to work in the open. So overall,
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I often think back to a conversation that I had with Zoe Wake Hyde, right where she talked about seeing openness as a tool. Something that may help us, may help provide us, may help us provide more equitable learning experiences, but also requires a lot of considerations to ensure equity and student success is centered around recognizing that openness might not always be the right tool and that that's OK.
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[Emily] There's a couple of things I wanted to pick up on there that you mentioned. So you were saying, you know, open is a tool and it may not always be the most appropriate tool and it might introduce students to some harm as well. So in some cases, it just might not be appropriate or it might not be something that the student that students wish to engage in. And I think that leads into one of the considerations that I wanted to speak to,
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which is that of informed consent. And basically students having the option to opt in or opt out. But in order to be able to do that in a way where they have to be fully informed about what it is they're opting in and out of. So in particular, if we're talking about open pedagogy as potentially releasing their works openly, then I think students need to have the knowledge of
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what it means for their work to be open. And in my work supporting open publishing, we often see open conflated with free. And I think that might have been something that you were mentioning. And while that is one piece, there is that other piece of re-use that we often have that often requires education and a bit more understanding.
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So reuse as in what does it mean for their work to be reused? What are the different ways that their work might be reused? So there's a real opportunity here to teach students about what it means for something to be open and openly licensed and what are the options that they have to license their work. For example, in order to have it be reused in the ways that they might want it to be reused.
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So I think in order to really equip students to be able to consent to open or to opt in or opt out, there has to be that education that happens upfront around licensing and the different ways that their work might be reused. I think one of the other things that there is to consider is that if students are creating work that might
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be potentially reused by others, then there's another educational opportunity here about rights and responsibilities as a creator of content that might be reused. So the rights are sort of what I was just speaking to in terms of being able to decide whether they want their work to be made open and reused and how, but also responsibilities as a content creator, which is respecting the and the ways that others have put their work out into the world and
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some of the ways that others have indicated that they do or do not want their work to be reused. And so, again, I think maybe this is my bias from my position as a librarian, but I do think that there is another educational opportunity there about some of the ways to reuse and credit other people's work so that when they're putting their work out into the world, potentially, that they
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have entered the conversation in such a way that they're respecting other people's work as well. So just a couple other considerations that I wanted to add to what Josie had said. [Dan] I really like what Josie said earlier about open pedagogy is not necessarily being a good thing. So if so, you know, we know there's value in closed pedagogy as well.
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We've talked a bit about the value of using open ecologies. We've talked about the risks inherent in that process. What about using them together? Can you use open and close ideas together? And if we can integrate them, what is… what are some of the considerations of that process? [Alex] I think some of the considerations have to do with
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we don't need to be purists and we can support openness by bringing it in cases where it wasn't found. So it can be with closed source texts even that we use in an open way. A way I like to do it is basically with ancillary material. All the stuff that goes with a textbook
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I hate teaching with textbooks, but I had to do so several times. And in many cases the material that I create alongside the commercial textbook becomes very useful. So you can even scaffold something. If you put it in the open, you can scaffold something that's based on a closed source, but can take a life of its own and something that we were discussing prior to this panel has to do with open source technologies that we use in a class system.
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I saw… happen to work that my employer… connect, or actually has a hundred instances of something that a learning management system which is open source, which is Moodle. But even with a closed source learning management system, there's a lot to be done by using approaches that are open or just supplementing them with open source tools that go with it.
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A good example and that's the one we were discussing a little bit, thanks to Emily in part is that there's annotation software that is free software called hypothesis. And there's a plug in specifically for learning management systems, including Moodle. The plug in itself is open source. The service behind it is paid, which is perfectly legitimate.
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And by using this annotation system, you can open up texts that are closed within an open source system and then using practices that are completely open in terms of the teaching itself. So I think there's an opportunity to bring those things together. I mentioned a hypothesis specifically. I actually… we plan a whole lab about annotation systems
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with teachers across the province of Quebec and this one will be done in English specifically. I think there's a lot of opportunities to work with people to create those things together. Those annotations can be very simple to add to any text. In fact, any text on the web can be annotated this way, and from that we can create material that is in fact open and can contribute
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to learning in a way that's much more open ended than what we typically do. [Dan] Emily, would you like to touch on that question as well? [Emily] Alex alluded to some of the conversations that we'd had about hypothesis, so I'm not really going to speak to the considerations of integrating, integrating open and closed pedagogies, but maybe offer up an example of how I've seen it work and
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how closed pedagogies have have sort of evolved into open pedagogies over the course of the term. So yeah, we were speaking about hypotheses, and I was working with a number of faculty who were using the LMS integration that Alex was speaking to, where students would be annotating open access documents and they would be doing so within
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sort of the confines of their learning management system. So their annotations were only open to one another and nobody else on the Internet could find them. And I think you can do that with the tool on the web too, if you create a private group. So it operated similarly to that. But students got comfortable with seeing each other's annotations with commenting on the annotations. They became familiar with the concept of annotation in general over the course of the
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term and became more comfortable with adding their voices to the conversation in that way. And then at the end of the term, a number of the faculty members introduced the students to the free web tool where if students were to use it, their annotations would be open on the Internet. For anyone to find who also had the web tool integrated I think, in their browsers. And they noted that many of the students,
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because they'd become familiar with annotation and comfortable with it within the course system, they actually were excited to use it and add their voices to the public web after the course. And they've gone on to use it beyond the term. So I thought that that was a nice example of closed pedagogies turning into open pedagogies. But without that pressure of students
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having to engage in open pedagogy frameworks, or because it was a requirement of the course, it was introduced gradually, and then it became an option, which I think that that option piece and that ability to opt in is something we've been talking about over the course of the panel. But yeah. So thank you, Alex, for raising that example and gave me a chance to speak to it a little bit with respect to this question.
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[Dan] Awesome. Thank you. Josie, did you want to add anything awesome? [Josie] But yeah, I think just maybe some general questions to wrap up this specific question just thinking about like where is openness useful and what is the purpose of doing something openly? Like asking those questions can help kind of maybe guide a balance of determining where openness is useful and where more
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closed as more closed approach would be more appropriate. Also, thinking through what are the opportunities to maximize student agency and choice and ensuring that you're giving students information they need to make an informed decision about what they're comfortable with and what they see the value in. And so I think that's all I wanted to share there. And I'm just going to post a link to some Open Pedagogy resources that Portland Polytechnic
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University in British Columbia has because they have a template for a student agreement for students who are considering sharing their work under an open license. So I think that template might be really useful to some people who are looking to do that kind of work with their students. So I'll post that into the chat. [Dan] Thanks, Josie. So today we've spent some time talking about what open pedagogies might look
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like, why, why we might use them and things to consider when using them. So where do we go from here? How does someone get started in open pedagogy? [Emily] I might go a little bit more high level than this or high level. And rather than providing any examples and hope that maybe my fellow panelists will jump in with some more concrete examples. But I think for me, just that conversation that I
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was sort of alluding to earlier about what it means to be open, but also what it means to be a creator of information and what rights come with that. So, you know, having those conversations that… where students are creators of information, whether it's within their course or whether it's outside of the course in their lives, outside the classroom, they are creating information. And so what are
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their rights as a creator of information? How can they make their work available? What are the options that they have? And if they are making their work available to people, how can they indicate that others can use it so I think it comes back to maybe some education about Creative Commons licenses as one part, but also what avenues do they have available to them? To make their work available and seen and viewed by others? I think that's a valuable
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conversation to have. And even without maybe introducing something more concrete in the classroom, give students some of the knowledge that they might need so that when that term ends, they know what options are available to them. They are maybe equipped to engage in open after the course of the term. So that might be one place to start, but I'll let my fellow panelists maybe offer some other examples.
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[Dan] Now, I think that is a great way to start for sure. Thank you, what about you Josie, how would you suggest someone get started in open pedagogy? [Josie] Sure. So I think my suggestion would just be to kind of explore what other people who use open pedagogy in the classroom are doing. And so a great place to do that is the open pedagogy notebook. And that's a site where people
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share their experiences, their assignments, their thoughts related to open pedagogy. It also is a really great discussion about the question of what is open pedagogy by Rajeev Jhangiani and Robin DeRosa. So that site is a wealth of resources, and kind of can give lots of concrete examples of different approaches and different experiences that people have had. Fantastic. [Dan] Thank you. Alex, what would you like to add?
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[Alex] So one way I like to do it is to prototype with learners. We talked about co-creation. And the idea there is that we're not forcing it. And it was very important, as Josie said of all, to inform consent. It's very important to ensure informed consent that it's really informed. So part of it is part of teaching. Like we need to really inform people when we start creating something with people.
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So prototyping to me can be very open ended, right? You don't necessarily know in advance what will fail. And that's a learning experience that's pretty useful. And one way I like to do it is actually with H5P, you probably heard about it. If not, you know, there's a wealth of material available, including from the H5P kitchen, thanks to Allen Levine, who was in the room.
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And it's a great way to prototype. It's basically the, an alternative to those old flash based scoring packages. If some people are old enough to remember those, they were pretty inconvenient in many ways. They were not that accessible. They were pretty hard to create and use. But each is actually I notice I observed in my network that
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people are taking to H5P without asking anyone either for help or even for permission. So it's possible to create H5P activities in muscle cell amsa's or most learning management systems in Moodle is actually a content hub where you can create them and share them directly. It's also available on WordPress and so on. So it's again, free software that has a service behind it that's also paid, but the fact that you can get started with learners
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just creating a multiple choice question, that's actually something I do a lot in my classes. When we start reviewing for an exam because I, you know, I still give exams there. They tend to be, they're not renewable as assignments, but they're still convenient in many ways. One thing I do a lot is get students in groups to create multiple choice questions because those are hard to create. And I basically ask them to
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really hash out what are the right answers and so on, and then we bring it to the whole group. If you have that as just something you can share easily, across platforms with the license, you know, specifically seeing this one multiple choice question that we created was created by so and so in the classroom and we allow you to change it to be used elsewhere. The learning experience
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that happened can flesh out in other contexts, and that's actually a pretty powerful experience. [Dan] So much wisdom is being shared here. I'm very, very grateful. Emily, where do you think open pedagogy might be going, or should it go? [Emily] Yeah, I've been thinking about my response to this question. I think there's a lot of different ways, but one
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of the things I wanted to sort of pick back up on is what Josie was mentioning earlier when we were talking about considerations for open pedagogy and realizing that token is just one tool. And there are some cases where it may do more harm than good. And I wanted to hit back on that because I think a lot of open pedagogy requires tools and technologies itself to be used. And some of these tools, especially as we see maybe more commercial
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vendors moving into this space or seeing, you know, open as something that's moving forward, we have to be critical of any tech that we're using to enable open pedagogies. And just thinking about, you know, as one example, like what data are these tools that we're using, collecting? And I'm not going to call it any tools in particular. And I don't really have one in mind at the moment. But just in general, thinking about the tools that we're using to enable open pedagogy
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really critically evaluating them before we introduce them into the classroom and also making transparent any things that may have to do with students or impact to the way that students engage with the tools of data being one example of being very upfront with students about what data these tools are collecting and how that data is being used. So I think maybe a couple threads there, like being critical of what we're doing and the tools
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that we're using, but also being transparent about open pedagogy as a practice are things that I, I would like to see continue, I guess in as open pedagogy continues to be used and, and implemented as a practice. [Dan] Thanks Emily, and you've made me think too about some of the brand new shiny technology that, you know, coming out and focusing on,
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on what it can do as opposed to is it accessible, those other kinds of questions up. So we have another question in the chat from Alice. I'm interested in renewable assessments, those that live beyond the gradebook and benefit the learner as well as the wider community. I welcome any suggestions or observations about renewable assessment as part of open pedagogy.
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[Alex] There's a whole discussion to be had about grades as simple as that and renewable assignments. If you don't know who's designing you, who's done great work about renewable assessments, specifically about sustainable development goals, she was part of a session during all global the conference in the fall when she was discussing this and in terms of creating so the assignments themselves
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are renewable and also the process through which it's done is meant to be sustainable. And so on. But I think the grading part, like the grade book portion of the equation, there is a lot to be said about peer assessment assessment by people who might work with you later.
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The concept of peer can vary quite a lot between academia, between and, you know, higher education in general. But also like peers in your work later on. So there's a lot to be done about. This is something that you create like a portfolio in arts, like I'm a musician and in arts there's a large tendency to create stuff
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that is technically an assessment and it's been you know, vetted by your teacher, but you put it in your portfolio as something you can show everyone, and it's renewable in that sense. So I think a lot of what can go beyond a great book is actually by, through badges. The open badges hype lasted just a couple of years, but now we're after the hype into something
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where we can build with it. There's a lot of micro certification, micro assessment that is being done, which does relate to work that is in the public so that we can actually work with it now. [Dan] That's great. Thanks, Alex. I see there's more questions in the chat and I see a perfect one for Josie. Would you explain if Open Works have to be published through pressbooks, can it be a document or media with open attribution? It's a great question.
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[Josie] It is a great question and no open works do not have to be published through press books. For those who aren't familiar, pressbooks is an open source publishing tool that's been designed to support specifically the publication of open textbooks. But it's used to share all sorts of open resources. Pressbooks is a great tool for publishing open resources because it's designed for them in mind,
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and it's trying to make remixing and sharing and adaptation as easy as possible. But you can publish open resources in any type of platform. Really, the main thing is making sure you're indicating that it's an open resource and that it's available to people who might want to use it. And like a big part is also providing an editable file. So if someone does want to remix it, they have the option of doing that.
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So people create open resources in word documents and Google slides and on standalone websites. And there's no really, like, format or platform specific that's specifically required to create an open resource. [Dan] We've got another question in chat from Kent. I think it's a really important and potentially complicated question, but I love it. What is the role of the commercial or private for profit sector in the production
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and application of open pedagogy materials? As open pedagogy proliferates in the marketplace, will the commercial education sector respond by raising prices for traditional education materials or responding by producing fewer commercial educational products? It's a great question. Does anyone have any initial thoughts about that? I see both Alex and Emily looking like they have lot’s to say, go ahead, Emily.
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[Emily] Yeah, Alex, we can both take this question. I mean, I don't have a ton of optimism when it comes to the role of the commercial sector. In working in the open pedagogy space. I think their model is for profit. So many of the values that are at the root of open pedagogy and that we'd like to see continue and remain at the
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root of open pedagogy, like inclusivity, and equitable access are not things that are at the forefront of commercial business models. So I am always skeptical when I see commercial vendors sort of pushing an open agenda. I think many times that results in open washing or, you know, calling something open when really it's not or maybe that's,
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you know, open is only part of it. So I think we have to be careful when we engage in, maybe things that commercial vendors are pushing as open. I think we've seen not I think we've seen a couple responses to open from commercial
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publishers or vendors like inclusive access being one as a response to open educational resources. So many publishers have introduced inclusive access as something that they're saying, well, this is a model that's solving the problem of the lack of affordability of open resources when really it's not as great of a solution as it's maybe being introduced as. And I can drop
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a link to a site that speaks about inclusive access that I believe was developed by Spark, if that's something that you're interested in learning more. But I think that is one sort of response that we've seen that's maybe not as good as it's being presented as. So I think that that's sort of one example and reason that I'm a little bit skeptical when I see commercial publishers trying to move into the open space so we'll drop
00:40:47
that link now and I'll turn it over to Alex. [Alex] And something that I'm pretty hopeful these days about open education in general. So I'll remain hopeful, including about commercial publishers. I think some of them are scrambling. I'm looking forward to learning more about inclusive access. What I heard about it wasn't very… it does sound like open washing,
00:41:15
which, you know, goes with the idea that they perceive a need to to be part of a conversation. And something where I get most hopeful is actually with bookstores like college and university bookstores who often collaborate with open education practitioners and advocates
00:41:40
so there's an opportunity there to shift the business model a little bit. A bookstore, you know, will typically sell books, but at one point it becomes much broader than this. And they can shift, they can find other ways to make money. I mentioned open source software projects, which have a paid service hypothesis itself, like
00:42:08
these days, they're actually doing pilot projects so that people will buy access to the LMS plug in. And that's perfectly legitimate. WordPress itself is a great example of open source. It's actually free software. They share many of our values and they have a business model behind it, something I keep using Stu Kelly who used to be at
00:42:35
Concordia, he's now at Schema in Paris, but he was teaching at John Wilson School of Business. Actually, I'm now finding a video that I hadn't watched, so I'll share it. So I didn't watch it. But I know that coming from T2, he probably gives great advice on the business models of Open. He also did an article specifically on the business models
00:43:03
of Open Educational Resources and there's a lot of work to be done by collaborating. Instead of saying you're a bad organization, a bad whatever, to say, well, we understand that your business model is based on exploiting people like, again, as a musician, I do care about the fact that most musicians weren't able to make a living
00:43:28
even on today, even now. But these days, there are new ways to make a living through music. And it might not be about access to the music itself. It might be by creating music together and all sorts of lessons like there are. Many, many more people musicing these days than they were 40 years ago. And that to me, it gives me
00:43:52
hope. As I saw, the commercial publishers are part of the conversation. They're not the enemy, but they need to understand that open washing doesn't fly with us. [Dan] Josie, do you want to add anything to that? [Josie] I think the only thing I would add is like when we're thinking about open pedagogy, I think that's something that's much harder for commercial publishers to co-opt it because it's something that's really at the agency of and like the design of instructors to be
00:44:20
able to implement in their course, like open pedagogy, pedagogy unlike an open textbook, isn't this like really tangible thing that can be packaged up and remarket it in different ways? So I think really getting back to it, what Emily was talking about earlier, like paying attention to the technologies that we're using and thinking about critically, about those technologies is a really important aspect when thinking about open pedagogy and commercial players in the open pedagogy space.
00:44:46
[Dan] One thing we had chatted about in our discussion previously was can open pedagogy exist in a closed environment? And we touched on this, already integrating those different pedagogies together. [Ale] In terms of integrating, we talked a little bit about open source and other things like that. It's not an either or. It's about choice, right? I think that's part of our message here
00:45:18
is that, well, to be perfectly frank, there are some people in this space and I love everyone in this space. Some people probably do it out of virtue signaling. Right. There's a little bit of how you can advocate against being open like open as good as yours. Like Josie said, it's not so simple. And I think there's a lot of room to scaffold
00:45:46
as we can do with commercial textbooks and then creating material that goes with it, but also to provide alternatives that go in other directions, including with the whole community. That's something that the whole movement is, I think, ready for. So in terms of where the movement can go from here, in terms of open pedagogy, I think it's outside higher education. I think it's underground in the community itself, especially the local
00:46:18
community. So makers are doing a lot of that. And they have not only discussions about, you know, I'm using something that is close, but I'm doing something open with it. Like they will take a toy and take it apart and do, like, circuit bending is using them as musical instruments afterwards. Right. It was technically closed, but they opened it physically so not only do they have discussions, but they actually do the thing where it's bringing together open and
00:46:46
close at the same time. And it can be actually fairly comfortable again if we give choice. It's not saying this is the only way to do, like, providing choice of the material we use or providing choice of which topics we'll address during your semester. And the same thing when we do public education, like really in cafes it can be like that. It can be integrating
00:47:12
different needs, including those that were less in the open but can be brought to be more open. [Dan] Thank you. So we have about three or 4 minutes left. We have time for one more question. And there. It is. Perfect thank you. Cathy, what do you think are the most promising technologies or apps that best support open pedagogy beyond H5P and WordPress? For OERs? It's a great question.
00:47:46
I think all three of you have an answer for that and see. So, Emily, go ahead. [Emily] Yeah, I'll give a quick answer. Maybe we could just do some rapid fire here. I've seen a lot of really great examples of editing Wikipedia as sort of a renewable assignment in the classroom. So I think Wikipedia can be one tool to facilitate teaching open pedagogy. And I know that there are - I think it's called Wiki Education - or there
00:48:12
are programs that can help instructors incorporate Wikipedia assignments into the classroom. And I've seen a lot of really great examples across the disciplines, so that would be my answer to this one. There are so many incredible student work being produced on press books, and that's really great to see. So I personally really like press books. So whenever student work goes up on press books, it's always my favorite stuff to explore.
00:48:40
But I think people are also using tools that do similar things. So like Google Docs for collaborative editing and all of those types of things. So yeah, I don't, yeah, it's what I have to share. [Dan] And I love how there's so many different options for different use cases. I know there's a lot of traction right now for Pubpub and Manifold, things like that. So lots of different options. Alex.
00:49:06
[Alex] Yeah, and then you had pointed out the fact that we're talking about those alternatives. There are also platforms like Manifold and Pubpub and in Pubpub there is actually the data feminism book that's just tremendous. I'll send a link. My answer in terms of tech it's one that might not be expected, but it's actually tech. It's linked open data. The web came from Tim Berners-Lee.
00:49:32
The semantic web is, you know, has been expanding. So I'm sharing the link to Five Star data, which is basically the idea that you can start with things that are pretty close. Like you provide data, but it's still close all the way to something that is linked to open data, which is like our standards of all this, and it allows for interoperability and all of that. It gets really geeky. My former boss is on the ISO board for Education,
00:50:00
Training and learning, and it's the kind of technology that can really change our world. And most people are not talking about it. [Dan] Great. Thanks for sharing, Alex. So I think that's a great place to end up. So I would like to thank everyone for attending today. Thank you for the questions. They were wonderful. A huge thank you to our three panelists. And I'd also like to thank the event's organizers. So thank
00:50:30
you for making this possible. So I really think that these kinds of conversations are important, valuable and worthwhile. So thank you.
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