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oh welcome to the first edition of the wp tavern podcast which we're calling jukebox my name is nathan wrigley and as this is
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the first ever episode of the podcast i'm going to spend a few moments setting your expectations our aim here is to create a podcast and transcript for people who are interested in
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wordpress and the wordpress community as a starting point we're going to produce one episode each month but that may change down the road we're not bound to any particular subject
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so it might be an interview with a core contributor one time and an organizer of wordcamps the next a panel discussion about a broad subject such as the future of wordpress
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or an episode about a very specific topic as i say we're not bound to anything except that it's going to have wordpress at its heart with that in mind it would be great to
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receive suggestions from you the audience i'd like to hear from you directly about what you'd like the podcast to feature that may be a topic that you're curious about
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a person that you'd like to hear from or anything else that comes to mind you can do that by going to wptavern.com forward slash contact forward slash
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jukebox and there you'll find a form to complete once again that url wp tavern.com forward slash contact forward slash jukebox
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and thanks in advance to anyone who reaches out [Music] okay so the podcast today features josefa hayden chomposi
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josefa is the executive director of the wordpress project and as such she has been at the forefront of wordpress's evolution for many years for the last six years josefa has worked full-time on the
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project and has been the release lead as well as being involved with community events many of the wordpress updates that you've seen recently have been under her stewardship and she's heavily involved in the
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project's roadmap and so talking with her about the past present and future of wordpress seemed like the perfect topic we talk about her discovery of wordpress
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and its community and how she considers that community in her decisions who can be involved and how we also get into the subject of gutenberg and how the turbulence of its
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introduction into wordpress core led her to rethink how the community is involved in such releases towards the end we discuss how in the future josefa wants to ensure that contributors
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have the tools that they need to do their work and how she wants to leverage learn wp to make it easier for wordpress's growing audience to make the most of the software if any of the points raised here
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resonate with you be sure to head over and find the post at wptavern.com forward slash podcast and leave a comment there and so
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without further delay i bring you josepha hayden chomposi [Music] i am here with joseph hayden chomposi josefa welcome to the podcast
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thanks for having me nathan you're very welcome now it strikes me it is possible that there are some people out there in the wordpress community who don't actually know who you are and what your role is so the first question is exactly that could
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you tell us a little bit about yourself and what your role is in wordpress yeah uh well my name as you mentioned is josepha hayden champo c and i am the executive director of the wordpress project
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and so um i help to make sure that whatever the vision is of the of the technology and the community and the ecosystem around it has everything that it needs to succeed and so i look after the people who are
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here contributing and i work look after the tools that they need in order to contribute and of course look after all of our our products our events in in person and online as well as our cms
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and all of the kind of design and stuff that goes into it so so quite a lot yeah yeah quite a lot about that what do you find yourself doing on a day-to-day basis other than coming on podcast episodes like this what what
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typically would you find yourself doing in a normal week yeah in a normal week i probably have about 50 of my time is taken up with meetings either in voice or video or on slack and
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a huge amount of my time is helping to make decisions from like the medium to large scale of things and so yeah it's a lot of talking to people making sure that i know what they need
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making sure that i know how to get them what they need once we get there and yeah it's mostly i guess mostly my job is is talking planning and solving problems
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yeah which frankly sounds like a fun job to me i realize not for everyone but no that sounds good to me did you did you start with wordpress a very long time ago is this something you've been doing for a really long time what in other words
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what's your path how did you get to where you are now from where you you first made contact with a cms called wordpress yeah i think at this point i'm technically considered a wordpress veteran but i'm actually i actually have
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not been in the project for as long as some people have i first discovered like learned the word wordpress in 2009 my mom actually introduced me to the cms
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uh in 2010 i started my local community with a couple of other folks in kansas city and then it kind of all grew from there i actually have been i just recently passed my six year
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anniversary uh with being a full-time sponsored contributor through automatics so yeah i think that makes me technically a veteran of wordpress um matt and i were talking about that during wordcamp india
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uh this past weekend yeah you um you obviously like the sort of the foss model that we've got in the wordpress community i don't know if you have a history of working in industry or something like that is is this the kind of community the kind of
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decision-making process that speaks to you where there's sort of an open way of doing things which can be different to a more top-down approach in business yeah i came into wordpress and into leadership
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probably from a pretty unusual path and so there's that to start with i'm not a natural-born leader i spent a lot of time learning how to do it and as i was learning all about how to lead
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the way that made the most sense to me from the start was leading from within and leading from whatever seat you happen to to occupy in your group at the time and so it's a
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lot of like this concept of servant leadership and a lot leading groups as they as they exist as their own organism as opposed to
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top down just like trying to manage them i really love group dynamics and leading mass groups of people like i it is a particular passion of mine and
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there are times when you do have to just say i'm sorry everyone i know that this doesn't make us happy but we've got to do this because we must do this for the health of our organization or whatever it is you know like mask mandates to be terribly topical
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in my experience of working with non-profits and volunteering during the course of my life there was no other leadership style that really was as sustainable
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and resilient and brought people into the organization as much as this kind of style of leadership that i have now and it happens to fit really really well in open source and for the most part also fits really really well in
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wordpress so i guess i kind of just got lucky yeah it's a really nice nice community to be in and it's sort of occurs to me that many people that interact with wordpress will well i say many people i don't know what the figures would be but they would go and
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download the software let's say from wordpress.org and upload it to their server and they're good to go that's their relationship with wordpress they're happy with that they use it new features come out and they're delighted it's great new features come out and they're
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kind of concerned and that's great how do things actually get done though how is the project moving forward i suppose it boils down to who makes the decisions but also what is the consultation approach how
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does the consultation occur to iterate the project forward because i suspect there'll be many people listening to this who will have no conception of how that's done or how the software got to where it is
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today as opposed to two years ago yeah i'm going to answer that question in two parts the first part i'm going to take is how are these decisions generally made and it ha that part comes with a big
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caveat of in a perfect situation this is how this will occur and then the second thing that i want to address in there is the question of how it probably should happen especially for
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open source at scale as wordpress is so to answer the first part the way that i always want it to work and the way that when things are optimally occurring
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these decisions should be made a good idea can come from anywhere and so anytime that a contributor brings a good idea to their team rep or to me
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or to a trusted fellow contributor and they want to kind of get an idea of whether it would succeed or not there is historically this idea of feature proposals which
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we kind of do in some of our teams right now but not in all of our teams where that idea gets a review from the full community or however many people are showing up on the blog at the moment and after
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they've had a bit of a conversation figured out the rough parts figured out what the solution that what the problem is they're trying to solve what the user's most beneficial way forward would be
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like once they figure all those things out then they bring it to in a lot of cases matt in a lot of cases me and then we figure out based on feedback from team reps and committers
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and major maintainers and contributors like what are the things that we need to know about these proposals to make sure that we get the right decision in place that is how it should work if
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everything's optimal right now there are a lot of places where people don't feel like they are able to raise their voice for questions there are a lot of places where where there is not enough uh support
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either from like the volunteers who are showing up or just from the concept of the overall roadmap where the people aren't there to help make the make it past that first hurdle of like someone help me figure out if this is a
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good idea for the 40 of the web that we're supporting and so that's how it should work optimally it doesn't always work perfectly well in cases where anyone gets
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a proposal or a suggestion that is has not been discussed in their community and hasn't been discussed in the project and we have to kind of figure out ad hoc like what is the right way forward here i actually do have a number of people
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that i personally speak to to get advice on the best way forward i've got some technical people who've been in the project for ages that i look to for advice i reach out to some of the industry partners i hesitate to call wordpress and
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industry for some reason the wordpress ecosystem uh sustaining partners we have folks like the people over at siteground or yoast or depending on who i need to talk to
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any other sort of company that fits in with the questions that i have and then a bunch of our long-term community maintainers people like andrea middleton or folks like that who can
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make sure that i understand what all of our benefits are what all of our risks are what all the hurdles are like it's been a long time since one person could do all of this work um reliably alone and so i i make a
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strong use of a bunch of really dedicated contributors i would say people who are really looking out for the community and i and i reach out to them quite frequently as far as how it should go in the future
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i do think that most of the lessons in the cathedral in the bazaar which is kind of the canonical source of how to do open source were written for much smaller projects than we are
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and so i think that there's a feeling right now in the community of like there is this cathedral and it's not the community the community is the bizarre and on the one hand i think that is true like the community itself does
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represent this beautiful chaotic kind of crackling energy sort of thing that we have but i actually think our community as
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small as as it is compared to the number of users that wordpress has is actually that central part of what makes wordpress successful and functional and the bazaar is actually all of those
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users that we don't have any access to access to that sounds really weird we don't have any way to talk to predictably right now and so i think that we are due for a change in our mindsets around that
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it is you know a one percenter thing to be able to contribute to an open source project and we should not be forgetting that we are building this on behalf of a huge portion of the of the population
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one of the things which seems to crop up from time to time is exactly what you've just mentioned you know the user base is enormous but the community of people who are actually building it is obviously much smaller and whether there's a disconnect in some
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instances between what the as you described the one percent might feel is required and the bazaar if you like what they feel is required and i really struggled to understand
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how on earth one would communicate between those two different sides of the coin if you like we really want you to understand that this is what we're proposing this is what we feel is the future for wordpress but how do we join those two streams
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together you know over here the the cathedral over here the bizarre and i just don't even know how to square that circle and imagine that's an enormous challenge yeah it is so reconciling
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the question of building for all of our users versus building for all of our developers or for all of our what i call our extender community our extender community
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it's a really hard task like every feature that gets put into wordpress whether it's the cms or how we manage a team or how we put our tools together like every single
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feature decision that's made is made with the best knowledge that anybody has at that moment for one and for two the closer and closer you get into like the really
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heart of the work being done on the project the more and more that you are trying to make decisions for all of core and all of the active contributors and all of the theme
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authors and plug-in authors and all of the users of wordpress and all of their visitors to their websites like that is a huge burden you have to think about so many groups
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and the community reminds me personally of this a lot like it comes up frequently that we i'm told don't know who our audience is and on the one hand that's right like we
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don't literally know every single type of visitor that we have here and every single type of thing that people are building using wordpress and on the one hand like that's the beauty of it is that we don't have to know who you
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are to want to give you the freedoms of open source and on the other hand it does really bring up a lot of for a lot of people some ethical questions of should we be making
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decisions on behalf of other people but i honestly helen said it helen hossandi said it in a court chat a few months ago like when you are making software you're always making decisions on behalf of other people
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even if you do know exactly who you're talking to and so it's not necessarily possible to talk to all of our audiences at the same time and it's definitely not possible to make all of our audiences all of our users happy in one
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go but the the blizzard the blizzard community pretty famously many many years ago said we serve a majority group of minority voices
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and we will always make someone mad and where we just want to not always make the same people mad because then we're making blind choices or at least biased choices i think about that often so when
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decisions are made which the community maybe 50 of them are going in one direction and 50 think actually this doesn't seem like the right direction good example may be when 5.0 came along and guttenberg i should say gutenberg because that's
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probably more correct was put into core that obviously there was a real bifurcation of where the community was going at that point to some extent how do you cope with that kind of thing how do you tackle when people are disgruntled when
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people are bringing things to you where they're dissatisfied or they believe they've somehow been ignored is it a question of saying to them look you just need to be involved if you're involved then we know what you're saying how do
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you deal with it yeah well i first have to say that i think that communities that are comfortable dissenting are really healthy
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when we see groups of people when we see communities where people are all constantly always agreeing and always in the same direction like it looks great on the outside but from the
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standpoint of like a maintainer of that community because i'm a maintainer of the wordpress community itself that is a really unhealthy organization when i wasn't hearing anything from anyone except for when they were you know
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shouting at each other on twitter like that was a sign of real organizational unhealth in my mind so i think that healthy organizations are ones that are comfortable enough to say like i
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do have worries about this because you know if we don't know where the worries are we don't know how to make solutions to avoid the worries but i never did say to anyone and i don't feel like the answer was well if you're upset about it you should
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get in here i don't think that's a fair response especially because like like i said earlier like contributing to open source is a really really privileged thing to do you've got to have a lot of extra time
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to do that and you know time is money in a lot of cases and so i never did say that i actually 5.0 merge was really really hard that whole process and not a lot of people believed in the
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way forward on it and they were raising the concerns but this was the vision that had been set out and so what i did was not to say well if you're mad show up and do some work on things what
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i did was say hey i know you're mad and i'm going to come and let you tell me how mad you are and i actually did a six-month listening tour to hear what everyone was the angriest about and it
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led up to a very lengthy 5.0 slash block editor merge retrospective post where i had spoken to basically all of the committers
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basically everyone who was writing code to create gutenberg everyone who was writing the core code to make sure that it was ready and a bunch of our agencies in the ecosystem a bunch of our theme authors and plugin
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authors i spoke to a ton of people over those six months just to see what they were the angriest about and we've been since then making changes to fix it it is fair that they were worried and
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it's fair that they had something to say about that and i and i don't think i never did think that the right answer was to say well if you've got an anger you've got a job that's not what they were trying to tell me you know it seems that you're concerned
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with communicating and making sure that communication out to the community is a part of your role and although i don't really want to go into this in great depth you've recently launched a bite size if you like a short 10 minute
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to 12 minute length podcast every couple of weeks we've got two episodes so far it's called wp briefing is that an effort from you to try and get the message out in a different way that people can consume
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bite-sized often easy to understand yeah so something like this a way for wordpress leadership to communicate more frequently and and
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with a little bit more ease has been on my list of goals list of needs that the wordpress project needs since about 2018. i did not think that i was going to be the one to do it
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um i was hoping that we would get a more technology project sort of person available but at the end of the day i was talking through it with matt at some time last year sometime in 2020
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and and we both kind of collectively came to the decision that yeah it would be nice to have some technology folks but also the way that i
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hope that we can do open source in wordpress and the way that i hope that we can that i can lead a group of people while always remembering their humanity and always adhering to
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my concept of basic ethical practices at scale like why wouldn't i be the person who should show up and say hey this is how i think that we can do this in wordpress i think it's
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a good opportunity for people to hear what goes into wordpress because it's really easy to be like wordpress is free and it's just available by magic and you don't know that there are 2 000 volunteer contributors that show
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up every single week to make that happen for 40 of the web like you just don't know what you don't know when you're first getting involved in wordpress and so like this i think is a good opportunity to uncover
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all of the hard work of the community i agree i think it's a great initiative i'm going to pivot the conversation slightly because we've had gutenberg for several years now and we've got a big year ahead there's
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an awful lot going on if you've been following the roadmap you'll kind of understand that this year is a really really major year so i'm just wondering where we're at what is in store for this year and how you feel we're aligned to deliver
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on the things that you hope in your aggressive roadmap what's the chances of achieving them all yeah i i do see all of the flags being raised about my aggressive timeline and my
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incredibly full set of goals for the wordpress project for the year and there is a lot out there and i know that i am fully prepared to say that at the end of the year we're going to look back
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and we will have missed some of those goals and that's going to be fine too for a lot of things now the one that is really really raisin some eyebrows is this full site editing merge
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and the merge process last time you know it took us a whole year and so the idea that we can say at the start of 2021 we're gonna get it in by the summer
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has been really really shocking to folks because it cuts that time in half and on the one hand like yeah it is it's really aggressive but on the other hand i know absolutely
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that the community can rise to that challenge like we always do it's a lovely group of people that really show up to make the best solution for the wordpress users that they can
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and i'm have been really pleased to see all of the work that's gone into full site editing over the last 12 months already and longer technically but definitely the last 12 months it's made huge strides so i want to clarify for all of your
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listeners that like the first primary target date to look out for is that april 2021 date that's what i am considering the go no go date
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because i will never take something that is super duper broken and users can't use and say we're getting it in a 5.8 because i made a promise to myself like i i'm not gonna ship a broken tool
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when i can help it and there is probably i think if my guess is right there's going to be a gutenberg plug-in release on the 17th of april and then the 23rd of april as well and those will be our two moments when
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we can say like we believe we can do this there's been a lot of discussion around like okay but what is the mvp that you think is going to get in there and i have been directing people to these milestones
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that there's this ticket that has the milestones for full side editing and we did clear one of those milestones and are getting it ready for testing right now and this is an unofficial concept of the
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mvp but i do think i'm right about this the guiding question that i have been asking myself as i am watching full site editing kind of get pulled together is could i using the blocks available
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pull together the major functional parts of a campaign landing page that is what i'm using as my guiding light for do i think this is ready or not and you know campaign landing pages
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that's like the smallest sentence of a smallest viable sentence it is the i am of websites right like you've got your header and footer you've got your hero image you probably have a
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button on the hero or a slider if you're feeling fancy and then you've got text you need to have a form you need to have a way to have a call to action it is a functional website on its own
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but it is the smallest version of a website and so the question that i have is can you without code pull that together and i don't know if that is for instance like matthias ventura i don't know if that is
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the guiding question that he's asking himself as he's looking toward what makes an mvp possible but it's hard to build software and open in the open right and so like you have to have a big
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enough goal so that you can display a plausible promise to the users so that you can say like this is what we believe this is gonna look like but not so big
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that you have gotten so far ahead of them that they don't feel like they can catch up and finding that really narrow space between far enough that you can tell what it's supposed to be but that you don't feel overwhelmed by
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how much has changed is is really hard to get to and so that's why i'm bringing us into some really clear focus around like we're driving to april so that we can ask ourselves as we go those really poignant questions
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of does this get us closer to the mvp does this help us solve this problem for our users because honestly full site editing is this intersection of the promise of the technology and the promise of the
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philosophy like this is where the rubber meets the road on what we've been saying about gutenberg for so long all of our promise lies in here and so it's important to get the tool right but it's also important to get the proper
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landing area for the first foray of the tool right okay so i'll link in the in the show notes that we put together for this i'll link to your big picture goals 2021 article which promoted the debate about the mvp
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but i'll also also make sure to link to the site editing milestones github piece as well so that people can figure out exactly what's going on just turning away from the full site editing thing as much as i want to keep talking about that
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there's more going on isn't it because in the near future you're highlighting a couple of other things the need for learn wp to become a real a real resource for people to get up to date
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upskill their interactions with wordpress and also contributor tools and although we haven't got a lot of time for those maybe pick one of those and tell me why you you're so bullish about those gosh let's go with learn i'm bullish about
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contributor tools because i desperately want our community to have tools that are easy to use okay that's good yep i'm really excited for the work on learn for a number of reasons for one
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we are a global project and right now so much of our training about like how to even get your bearings in wordpress before you are able to get to the 101 content
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that's out there happens at an event and in order to get to an event you have to pay basically three ways you have to pay with your money in a lot of cases you have to pay with your time and for
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any entrepreneur you're also potentially paying with an opportunity cost all the time that you spend there not only you not working but you're also not working to fill your funnel and so finding a way to take that training
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opportunity and remove as many barriers as possible and and make it available online for anyone who needs it to be able to get to no matter where they are like that is so important to me and so compelling that's
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my big picture hope there and right now there are still quite a few barriers to entry we mostly have like english based workshops and tutorials there and and so if any of your listeners are
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interested in joining that effort we need a lot of translations we need a lot of just workshops in other languages and various things like that but i really believe that this is a
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space where wordpress can be really forward-facing in owning the fact that we know how to use our tool the best and that our community is the best group of people to tell each
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other and to tell future community members like what can happen and not happen with wordpress like they are the people who know what is needed they are the subject matter experts of their own business
00:31:06
and their own plugins that they needed to do those things and so like um getting that opportunity with as few barriers as possible but to really be able to say like we are a canonical source of good information
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about how to use this especially when you don't know even remotely what you're doing yet like i think that's a good a good step forward yeah with any software with just about any product in fact in the world having fantastic documentation
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that you can understand and consume and there's one as you said canonical source that you can go to and if it's not exactly there you may well pick up another path to finding exactly where it is and so yeah i just think that's such a great thing now that we're
00:31:44
hitting 40 of the internet this seems like a really valuable project with time being limited i'm going to pivot once more and talk about the longer term the things that are off in the horizon
00:31:56
it's a very broad question because i don't want to stifle you what are the things in the longer term after this year that you're getting excited about in the wordpress space gosh you asked me a really big question
00:32:09
and i have like 20 answers i'm going to tell you some of the things that i'm super excited about i am for one super excited about really continuing to remove these
00:32:21
barriers to entry for future wordpressers i define our community as anyone who has interacted with wordpress whether they know it or not and at forty percent of the web
00:32:34
it is increasingly true that the people in the don't know they interacted with wordpress group is also getting bigger and because the work of all of our
00:32:47
contributors all of our entire community that shows up to help get this done no matter which team they get it done in because every time they commit changes to the work
00:32:58
and to the greater collective uh project that they're working on that change and their name with that change and their work lives in the entire history of that they
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add they take 17 years of learning that came before them add in a new learning based on new information we have today and then they are forever in the history of what made wordpress successful
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and getting to a point where our 40 of the web just websites and also the people who interact with the for that 40 have some concept of what goes into that
00:33:38
work and this community that is behind it the more and more that they have a deep understanding of that just like wine appreciation or something jazz appreciation
00:33:50
the more that you understand that the more that you see the value in what is happening here with open source because you know open source is a is a contentious kind of space in the world if you look at it and how it applies to
00:34:03
businesses and how it applies to in some cases governmental structures and things like that and i really feel like the more that we dignify the work that goes into this tool and the more
00:34:16
that we can subvert that feeling of like wordpress isn't secure because of whatever reasons like the more that we can change those narratives the more that we dignify the professions of all of the wordpress
00:34:26
contributors that show up in their very tiny spare time because they're giving back to a project that gave them so much in the work that they do today i just this is going to sound really sappy
00:34:40
it is the honor of my of my career to be doing this work with wordpressers and the fact that the general public has a tendency to say like oh well wordpress is terrible because it's by volunteers is just not
00:34:54
fair to them and it's not accurate to what they're doing either and so i feel like the sooner that we can really shore up this concept of like yeah it is volunteers but they are all absolutely
00:35:06
experts in whatever field they're in and in their spare time they give back to something that made them so good the sooner we can do that for the community as a whole i think the better just kind of dignifying the profession of being in wordpress
00:35:18
yeah i'm going to anchor my reply to that to an article that you posted recently called making wordpress releases easier i'll link to it in the show notes and some other points that you drew out in there marry perfectly to what you've just said
00:35:30
because one of the concerns that you were raising in the longer term is the idea of things like this discussion came up in the context of the release cycle and whether or not we should be trying to go for a specific
00:35:42
number four releases per year or whether there should be some flexibility there whatever that number may be but you express concern for things like developer fatigue and the fact that we need to sort of realign the number of core developers
00:35:55
that we've gotten the number of designers who are who are helping in the system so what were you meaning when you were describing your worry about the developers that we're currently using exhibiting signs of fatigue and so on
00:36:07
as with every single time i talk about like the deepest parts of my work have to start by saying like my whole job is identifying our risks and our most uh weak places and
00:36:21
finding ways to make them stronger and finding ways to steer around the risks that we have and so sometimes what i say sounds super duper dire but in general i think that wordpress is in a really good space right now it's in a really good
00:36:33
position especially considering that we are still in the middle of a global pandemic and so like that general context for what i'm about to say which is going to sound a little dire
00:36:45
we have a number of committers and a number of maintainers that show up to do this work every day and that is not only for the code but also for uh the design work it's also for our
00:36:58
translations it's for folks in the support forums like all of our 25 teams or something everyone who shows up to do that that work every day it's really hard
00:37:09
in a global pandemic situation to keep everyone feeling resilient and feeling like everyone around them is a human being and keeping them mindful of the fact that they are also a human being
00:37:23
everything is really stressful for the world and for them and for the our users and people who are trying to you know replace their income by coming up with a wordpress site using a woocommerce solution or whatever it is
00:37:36
and it's on the one hand true that we would have had a little bit of difficulty with fatigue with our maintainers and committers even before this but especially right now especially in the context
00:37:49
that we find ourselves in it's really hard for people to recharge and all of the work that would have needed to happen in order to get us to for releases this year should have happened in 2020
00:38:02
but we were all really really focused on pivoting an entire arm of our community into a space that we are not necessarily terribly familiar with online events is just not something that
00:38:14
we as a project did a lot of you know and so i guess my overall concern is we have two major projects
00:38:26
kind of that that go at the same time at the same pace and the more and more people use wordpress and gutenberg the more and more we have tickets that are opened and we have roughly the same number of people
00:38:38
who can help us to make the decision write the code create the design whatever it is and then review it test it commit it it's the same
00:38:52
general number of people right now as it was in 2019 and it's getting harder and harder for me to find ways to reliably feel like they're
00:39:03
getting themselves recharged and practicing sustainable self-care work you know is this a job of recruiting more people in or trying to like you have obviously been doing trying to to get more people in the community
00:39:17
involved is it a bums on seats to use a cruise analogy is that is that what's required i think it's a bit of both i think it's a little bit get more people in here who can who can help us do the work which is hard to do
00:39:30
in a normal setting and and is also harder to do when we're not seeing each other uh in person i have a whole thing about that um many many thoughts but it's a little bit getting people in
00:39:43
here and also it's a little bit making it very clear to the people who are using 100 of their spare time like they have two hours a week and so they did a patch and they showed up and
00:39:55
they're like please take my patch and if they know that we don't have 110 people reviewing and testing and committing things we really have 30. it can
00:40:07
help to give those 30 committers a little bit more space because people don't expect that 30 people can manage 300 new tickets every hour or something you know like um
00:40:21
just to kind of uncover the mountain that we're working with i guess to give everybody a little bit more breathing room i guess that's it well joseph i know that your time is valuable and i know that i've consumed probably already
00:40:34
more of it than was allowed so just like to say thank you i know that you have an awful lot sitting on your shoulders certainly from my part greatest appreciation thanks for all the work that you do and thank you for coming on the podcast and talking to me today
00:40:47
thanks for having me i thought this was really fun oh
00:41:07
[Music]
00:41:31
you
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